Many women in Christendom these days are under the complete misunderstanding that it is proper and acceptable for a woman to teach a man in an assembly of believers. Egalitarianism in the assembly is unbiblical; plain and simple. The men are the ones given the authority to teach and the women are to remain silent. They are NOT to teach. There are no verses supporting women teaching men in an assembly of believers. Men alone are given authority to teach, to become pastors and elders.
Authority over the man is DENIED to the woman according to the creation order and according to the penalty of the curse. They are to submit to the man's authority. Thus sayeth the law:
Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
1 Tim. 2:13-14
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Cor. 11: 8-9 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
To be clear again, it is improper for a woman to teach in an assembly or to be in a position of authority over a man. Let's look at what the Word of God teaches on this subject.
Rev 2:20
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
NOTICE THE FIRST ISSUE: They suffered ( G1439 "eao"- permit) her to teach. "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, to teach." Now, in addition to this, her teaching was seductive. It
caused the hearers to commit idolatry. (1 Kings 16:31-32 & 1 Kings 21:25-26)
Dr. Tony Garland in his commentary on Revelation makes the following observations:
"Jezebel of Thyatira not only taught error, but exercised teaching authority over men in opposition to role distinctions set forth by Paul ( 1Tim 2:12). As Paul explains, such role distinctions are not cultural, but grounded in God�s created
order (1Tim. 2:13-14). The error of the Thyatiran church was not just that Jezebel was allowed to promote unbiblical concepts, but that she evidently held a position as a teacher over men. This is another point of identification with the strong-
willed, domineering Jezebel of the OT. No doubt, both her position of influence and the content of her teaching were repugnant to God."
1 Cor 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak ( G2980 "laleo" - to talk, to utter words) but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Women are forbidden to speak in church. Here is Dr. John Gill commenting on this passage:
"They may not speak in such sort, as carried in it direction, instruction, government, and authority. It was not allowed by God that they should speak in any authoritative manner in the church; nor was it suffered in the churches of Christ; nor was it admitted of in the Jewish synagogue; there, we are told the men came to teach, and the women "to hear": and one of their canons runs thus;
"a woman may not read (that is, in the law), "in the congregation", because of the honour of the congregation;''
Women are to submit themselves to the men and to learn in silence.
1 Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
They are NOT PERMITTED TO TEACH or to USURP the male authority.
1 Tim: 2:12-13 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Men are the ones that are to hold the authoritative offices of pastors/bishops/elders etc.
1 Timothy 3: 1-2a "THIS is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...." - Notice - if a man be a bishop, etc. Not if anyone wants to be.
Also see, Titus 1: 6 -- "Husband of one wife......apt to teach...."
So then, when are women permitted to teach men in an assembly ( a gathering of believers)? They are not. That means not taking an authoritative tone and/or not having the intent to "school" a man in what they need to know. Woman are not to have a didactic attitude toward a man. Period.
Do women have any authority to teach at all? Yes, they do.
Titus 2:3-5 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their
children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Can any woman teach other women? NO.. only those who are "aged" ( that is mature in the faith) . They must also first have behavior which becometh holiness, not false accusers, not drunkards and teachers of "good things" What are the older women to teach the younger?
-Love husbands
-Love children
-Discretion
-Chastity
-Homemaking
-Goodness (character)
-Submission to ones husband
NOTICE: Women are not told that they may teach theological issues even to other women.
OBJECTIONS:
1. Men and women are equal
Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
This verse relates to salvation, it has nothing to do with authority or office. It has nothing to say about our subject whatsoever. Those who try to apply this verse otherwise do so in exegetical error.
2. What about Deborah, Ruth, Esther, etc.
What about them?
3. What about Priscilla? She taught Apollos.
Acts 18:26
"And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
First, notice that she and her husband took Apollos aside. This confirms that Priscilla understood the command against speaking in an assembly. Also, please take notice that the Scripture is not specific who did the "expounding". All we can conclude from this is that the husband and wife were together when Apollos was being instructed.
4. What about Timothy?
2 Timothy 1:51
"I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well."
2 Timothy 3:15
"You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus."
All that we can conclude here is that Timothy was raised in the faith. He was taught the Scriptures as a child -- not as a man.
Women are not to usurp authority or teach spiritual fornication or be domineering in the assembly of believers. Agreed. But a woman can expound on the scriptures and prophesy and use her spiritual gifts and she has the responsibility to do so. Also, Paul wrote many things directed at specific individuals and churches that were pointed corrections and chastisements, and I do think you're picking and choosing your verses.
In this verse, Paul identifies that women can pray and prophesy with their heads covered, etc, but also implies that the whole discourse on head coverings is not a doctrine or custom of the church.
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
**16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."**
In this verse, a woman very humbly entreats Jesus and even apparently changes His mind.
Mark 7
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. 28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. 29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter. 30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
Also, there were quite a few female prophets in the bible, and God has very specific messages and purpose for prophets. If they do not speak what they're to instruct the people with, they are responsible for it to God.
Deuteronomy 18
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak , or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die . 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken ? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
In the last days, both sons and daughters with prophesy.
Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
In this example, women came to Moses and complained of the injustice that they were experiencing. God took their side, changed an established rule, and placed them over their elders/uncles in the inheritance pecking order.
Numbers 27
Then came the daughters of Zelophehad, the son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of Manasseh the son of Joseph: and these are the names of his daughters; Mahlah, Noah, and Hoglah, and Milcah, and Tirzah. 2 And they stood before Moses, and before Eleazar the priest, and before the princes and all the congregation, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, 3 Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the company of them that gathered themselves together against the Lord in the company of Korah; but died in his own sin, and had no sons. 4 Why should the name of our father be done away from among his family, because he hath no son? Give unto us therefore a possession among the brethren of our father. 5 And Moses brought their cause before the Lord. 6 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 7 The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren; and thou shalt cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them. 8 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter.
In this verse, a woman was both prophet and judge for the people of Israel.
Judges 4
4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. 5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? 7 And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. 8 And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. 9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the Lord shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.
All that being said, there are also just as many verses telling men to be quiet and learn and respect authority and not to teach false doctrine. I do agree that men hold the headship roles and the authority positions, but that doesn't exclude women from the equation or release you from listening to correction from a woman(especially one backed by the bible:goofball:), and you must use the entire bible to prove your point. Also, using your logic, we are not in "the assembly", so women can speak all they want.
If you're going to complain about Jude and Teach, then I'd like you to stop being biased about Donna. She has attempted to reproved and correct and teach me and others quite a bit. I'm not the least bit offended by it though, we should welcome correction from any source, and weigh it by the scripture. There are far too many times that I see you advocating for people to stop trying to correct you, that worries me. You should look into that, and also look into why you feel the need to belittle people, without using the excuses that you're trying to be funny/everybody's just so sensitive/they did it first.
The Bible teaches what it teaches. It's very straightforward and clear on this subject. All of the applicable principles that can be deduced from these passages are also very clear. I see no reason to continue discussing this.
Here are some quotes from Brother Halfback:
"The dialectic then opposes the absolute nature of "it is written," the Word of God. As a method for the changing of beliefs and doctrines the dialectic seeks to change or diminish faith that scripture is absolute facts. In other words the dialectic is an argument against scripture. It wants to compromise the absolute nature of scripture."
"The dialectic mind deals in relationships of feeling, with emotions and opinions, and opposition to absolutes to defend those feelings and opinions."
"Those who use dialectic arguments or quarrels against the facts of scripture are always looking for loopholes, shades of grey, contradictions and verses where the meanings and implications are not spelled out in great detail to hit at with their rejection of the absolute."
"And those who use the dialectic often do not start an attack directly against the doctrine they are opposing. Instead, they often attack the doctrine from the side. They start an argument against some one small part of the doctrine, or a related doctrine, thinking that in so doing they can somehow, by a kind of witchcraft, defeat the entire doctrine of truth they oppose. The person who habitually has trouble refraining from use of the dialectic in carrying on a dialogue over issues of disagreement often misrepresents the position of the opponent. Sometimes the misrepresentation is obvious and at other times more subtle"
Further, it should be publicly noted that DontHitThatMark is a self professing 7th Day Adventist. As such, he is not heeding the Scripture w/ respect to Ellen White. Ellen White is a Jezebel - a false teacher, false prophet, and a plagiarist.
You might also want to look at why you feel the need to discredit and ignore people to detract from the points they make. Is it that you have no defense for your points or no regard to gently correct my error in case God grants me repentance? Deborah was a prophet, Miriam was a prophet, Anna, the daughters of Phillip, Huldah, etc. The bible says that in the last days there will be more female prophets. Will you listen to them or complain that they're trying to boss you around?
You should also look closely at this verse. A prophet who prophesies and it doesn't come to pass is still a prophet. Even one who sins is still considered a prophet. Being a prophet doesn't make you perfect %100 of the time. Balaam was still a prophet, Jonah was still a prophet, Samuel was still a prophet, Moses was still a prophet, etc. All of them were sinners, none of them were perfect. Some of them prophesied of things that didn't end up happening, some of them disobeyed direct orders from God Himself.
Deuteronomy 18
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak , or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die . 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken ? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Ellen White was not perfect. However, if you look at the life of Ellen White, she was a good and godly woman, much better than a lot of the prophets in the bible, and advocated personal bible study above everything else. She believed the main points of what you're arguing here, just with a more biblical outlook. Women are to submit to their husbands as is fitting in the Lord and are not to be overseers of the church body, but with all the biblical examples we have, women are not mandated to stay home and/or shut up when in the presence of men who think they have a license on all truth. Women have as much of a duty to stand for and spread God's truth as men do.
Joseph Smith was the leader of a cult, turned his followers from the bible, and was an active polygamist with other men's wives.
You will know them by their fruits. There are many christian denominations out there doing God's work, and Adventists are one of them.
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
1John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
"You should also look closely at this verse. A prophet who prophesies and it doesn't come to pass is still a prophet"
Maybe, you should look at that passage again. A prophet who prophecies and it doesn't come to pass is a FALSE prophet. FALSE prophets are to be given the death penalty. It doesn't sound like God finds the whole false prophecy thing acceptable.
So, in accordance with the Bible, Ellen White should have been executed for her crimes against God and her fellow man.
why is divorce so rampant and also a last resort to a failed marriage.
Posted : Posted : 11 Oct, 2013 05:49 PM
"Oddly enough, a very similar conversation came up the other day on another forum with largely Reformed men and women. The outcome was quite different with many of the women arguing for the women's duty to submit. "
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Were these women talking and discussing teaching with men in the room/forum? �Is it ok because they are largely reformed?
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Earlier on this thread IWA posted: "What is the difference betwixt a women posting teachings of a man or a women posting scripture and how is either of these considered Teaching men ???. This is a straw man argument."
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How is this a strawman? �This is exactly what this thread is about. �"Why are the women here teaching the men?"
You posted on the Biblical Questions and Discussions Forum...if women can post men's words and not be 'rebuked' for it then what is the difference in a woman posting Scripture? �And if that same woman who posts men's words posts her own thoughts without being rebuked for it why would another woman be rebuked for posting her thoughts?
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DLJRN posted on thread:
THE FALLACY OF FREE-WILL
Posted : 30 Sep, 2013 05:10 PM
�"Christ said it is finished, not it is finished if you choose me of your own free will.�
Praise God my salvation is from beginning ( God drew me) to the end (God glorify s me). Everything in between is God by his grace by way of the holy spirit changing my desires to his will and not my selfishness. Putting of myself and putting on the whole armor of God.
*****she has posted hundreds of posts...
Even those that were quotes or copies of passages, was she trying to teach others about her beliefs? �
I am not saying she should stop...it is her free will that she chooses to post what she chooses to post. �
It is my free will to read or not read, respond or not respond whether it is a male or female who has posted.
******
DLJRN posted earlier on this thread: "No one likes truth IWA, as proven by a feminist and pj."
Her statement that no one likes truth is true, just like we are all sinners. �It's how we react to the truth, no matter who reveals the truth that really matters. �Often it is the truth from a child that helps us realize the error of our ways. �Are we to ignore the truth because the child should not speak out and should not rebuke the elder? �I think not.
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James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.�
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Well, I probably should look it up to be theologically correct. But I won�t (don�t feel like)� but neither of these women taught in the synagogue. Deborah was a military leader; Ester influenced/persuaded her husband privately. Lois and Eunice taught Timothy the way family is supposed to of Scripture. No it is not said but one can imagine as he was lying down, as he was getting up, as they were walking along the road. Yes, even women have the gift of prophecy but the passage didn�t say they preached in the synagogue.
I agree with you. Y-shua is the covering over a man and a man is the covering over a woman. Maybe you didn�t say that� but my paraphrase. G-d has order in all He does. If he made it for the home, well He made it for His home (the church) too. this does not negate women in the least. I teach men all the time in debate and just conversation like at work, school whatever. But women should be under a covering of a male pastor in a church.
