Author	Thread: Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this
Admin	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 16 Mar, 2014 05:27 AM Hello everyone I find that many 'churches' SAY they believe the Word of GOD,and say they believe the New Covenant;Yet on the Biblical matter concerning 'SHEPHERDING' the flock of GOD what is being proclaimed and shown to the people. Many times people go back to the Old Covenant to justify the position for the ONE man show/ pastor,yet the NEW COVENANT NEVER has a place for the ONE man show. Let us look at a few Scripture concerning the PLURALITY of ELDERS in order to have a right understanding of the role of SHEPHERDS. The term 'ELDERS' is found 60 times in the New Covenant,and is used concerning Shepherding the people of GOD. Mat_15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. Mat_16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mat_21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? Mat_26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, Mat_26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. Mat_26:57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. Mat_26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; Mat_27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: Mat_27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Mat_27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing. Mat_27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. Mat_27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, Mat_28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, Mar_7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. Mar_7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? Mar_8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Mar_11:27 And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, Mar_14:43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. Mar_14:53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes. Mar_15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate. Luk_7:3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. Luk_9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. Luk_20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, Luk_22:52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? Luk_22:66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying, Act_4:5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, Act_4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, Act_4:23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. Act_6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, Act_11:30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. Act_14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. Act_15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. Act_15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. Act_15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. Act_15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: Act_15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Act_16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. Act_20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Act_21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. Act_22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. Act_23:14 And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul. Act_24:1 And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. Act_25:15 About whom, when I was at Jerusalem, the chief priests and the elders of the Jews informed me, desiring to have judgment against him. 1Ti_5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. Tit_1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: Heb_11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. Jas_5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 1Pe_5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Rev_4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev_4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Rev_5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Rev_5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Rev_5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev_7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Rev_7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Rev_11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Rev_14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Rev_19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. Matthew 13 verses found 13 matches Mark 7 verses found 7 matches Luke 5 verses found 5 matches Acts 18 verses found 18 matches 1 Timothy 1 verse found 1 match Titus 1 verse found 1 match Hebrews 1 verse found 1 match James 1 verse found 1 match 1 Peter 1 verse found 1 match Revelation 12 verses found 12 matches In 1st Peter 5:1-2 Peter encourages the ELDERS (plural) to be SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD and not a 'pastor'(singular). 1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Likewise Paul also encourages the ELDERS (plural) to SHEPHERD the flock of GOD not a pastor(singular). Look into verses 17 & 28,the role of the ELDERS is to be SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD. Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Act 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, Act 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Act 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Act 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Now that the Elders are to be the Shepherds,why does the so called 'church' have a pastor (singular) usurping the place of the ELDERS. So then,is the 'church' in unbelief or is the Word of GOD wrong? Do we have the authority to tell the 'church' to repent and believe the Gospel by returning to the Plurality or Elders;OR do we CHANGE the Word of GOD to fit the 'churches' understanding of the role of ELDERS along with their understanding of Biblical Shepherding. Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Shalom Post Reply
Matthew75 View Profile History	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 18 Mar, 2014 04:41 PM >>Might i ask you,where would i find an ASSISTANT pastor in the Word of GOD. And what was Arron to Moses besides his brother? Legalistic following to the letter of the law misses the point. If you follow the idea of having a hierarchy in Church leadership as is advised in Exodus, then where is the sin in having an assistant pastor? Not all churches I've been to have an assistant pastor. That position usually only exists in larger churches. Yes, Christ fulfilled the law. This statement means the imagery established in the ceremonial laws came to fulfillment. Christ did not do away with the law and by no means did the definitions of right and wrong change with the coming of the Christ. To tell me that the advise given on how to live and organize your life/business/church outlined in the old testament no longer apply is the same as telling me that the 10 commandments no longer apply because they are not repeated exactly in the new testament. The real point is that the concept of church hierarchy is outlined in the Bible. The larger the church, the larger the hierarchy needs to be. So while a church with 20 members doesn't need an assistant pastor, a church with 1000 members probably needs one or more. I think the problem here is you are getting hung up on titles. To illustrate the problem with titles, if you look at the different branches of the the US military, the various ranks have names but the names are different in the different branches. Along with those ranks, they have what is called a pay grade. E1, E2, E5, WO-1 WO-2, O-1, O-2.... These are consistent regardless of branch. Example: Navy O-1 is Ensign Army O-1 is 2nd Lieutenant These are the same rank. If you get hung up on titles, you may miss the fact that they are the same thing. To continue the problem with being hung up on titles, consider these: Navy O-6 Captain Army O-3 Captain Here, we have very different ranks but both have the title of Captain. A Navy Captain outranks an Army Captain by 3 ranks. So don't get hung up on titles. What is important is the principal of the hierarchy regardless of what names the different positions are given. Post Reply
View Profile History	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 18 Mar, 2014 05:47 PM Hi Matthew: I see that you have done exactly as the so called 'church' leaders have done;you have gone to the OLD COVENANT to justify the function of a so called assistant pastor' which cannot be found within the NEW COVENANT. My question to you is this: When will you come out from under the OLD COVENANT,and begin to BELIEVE what is written in the NEW COVENANT. If you want to stay under the old covenant why do you not continue with the sacrifices prescribed in the Old Covenant,or do we just pick and choose what best fits how we want to Worship and meet together. The Old Covenant has been rendered obsolete by Yeshua. Is there a need today for the function of 'The High Priest' ? Is there a need for a 'worship' leader or worship band ? Is there a need today for any of the Old Covenant sacrifices ? Is there a need for tithing ? Is there a need for the material temple ? Is there a need for anyone to fulfill the prophecies concerning the Messiah ? Is there any need for the function of the Levite or the Levitical order ? Is there any need for the Urim and Thumimm ? Since there is no need for any of these, Then why would a person continue going to the Old Covenant to justify themselves and to justify their UNBELIEF of not meeting according to the New Covenant. Remember Messiah Yeshua is the CHIEF PASTOR / SHEPHERD. Chesed Post Reply
Matthew75 View Profile History	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 19 Mar, 2014 03:13 PM Matthew 5:17-18 ESV �Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Romans 7:7 ESV What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, �You shall not covet.� Hebrews 10:28 ESV Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 2 Timothy 3:16 ESV All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ------------ To sum this all up. The Old Testament still applies. Are we bound to the ceremonies of the old covenant then? NO, but it is important to understand them and how they applied and in what manor they foreshadowed the Christ. Read Hebrews chapters 8-10. ---- To directly answer your questions: Is there a need today for the function of 'The High Priest' ? Most definitely YES YES YES. Christ is the eternal high priest that intercedes on my behalf. Is there a need for a 'worship' leader or worship band ? This is just nit picking. how about well call them an organizer instead. If we went to church and everybody was singing a different song a the same time, it would be chaos. So, in order to not have chaos during our time of worship, it needs to be coordinated. This is the "job" of the "worship leader" Is there a need today for any of the Old Covenant sacrifices ? YES YES YES YES YES. Daily I need the sacrifice Jesus the Christ as my high priest made for my sins. Is there a need for tithing ? Yes. How else is a church to be funded in order for them to reach out and feed the poor? There are many references regarding giving to the church throughout the new testament. Is there a need for the material temple ? There is a new temple. Our bodies now server as the temple. Is there a need for anyone to fulfill the prophecies concerning the Messiah ? Yes, there is a need for someone to do this. Jesus did this and he was someone. Is there any need for the function of the Levite or the Levitical order ? Is there any need for the Urim and Thumimm ? Regarding these two... I already made the statement that it is important to understand what the significance of these were so we have a better understanding of everything Christ fulfilled. --- But is knowledge of all these things required? No. What is required is Faith in Jesus as the Christ who died for your sins so that you may be sanctified. I will say it is good to know what your faith represents. I don't follow the Christian buffet taking only what I want and discarding the rest. EVERY word from God is beneficial. Do I practice the ceremonies of the old testament? Not directly but I honor what they were and what they represented. For example, with Easter coming, it is good to go over what Passover was and it's significance and how it DIRECTLY relates to the Christian faith. Christ was the blood of the lamb. By accepting his sacrifice in place of my own punishment for sin, I spread his blood on the doorposts of my heart so when judgment comes, I will be passed over. So you see, the old is not gone, its significance still apply. What changed is how we observe. Post Reply
View Profile History	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 19 Mar, 2014 03:42 PM Hi Matthew: Thank you for your reply. Have you ever read and studied 1st Corinthians 14:23-34 After reading and studying the New Covenant Scripture i find no mention of ANY worship leader or a worship band;nor is tithing mentioned. I cannot find a pastor,or ANY type of human leader. What i do find is the BODY of believers meeting together to worship Messiah,and to exhort one another. I find the Holy Spirit empowering people to Glorify GOD Almighty ACCORDING to the Word of GOD. Today most of what is called worship,really is just a form of entertainment. Real worship empowered in the Holy Spirit is spontaneous,and brings Glory and attention to Yeshua. Real worship is interactive,but today most people are only FANS, not active participants. Blessings Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 20 Mar, 2014 06:05 AM Ephesians 4 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: There is an authority structure in the church, and I think Matthew explained his point pretty well. Titles are just that, and different titles don't infer different authority, especially when we're talking about two separate languages. The elder/deacon structure is the main organizational authority, but there were also apostles and prophets who have higher spiritual authority. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 20 Mar, 2014 05:44 PM Hi Mark: Thank you for your reply: Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; When you look into the Greek language concerning Ephesians 4:8-12; you will find the English word 'some' does not exist,and should not be in the english. Thus it would read as this. And HE gave apostles,prophets,evangelists,pastors,teachers ; so that ANYONE is able to being an apostle ,or prophet,or evangelist,or SHEPHERD,or teacher as the Holy Spirit empowers the person. The Holy Spirit EMPOWERS a person,not the local cemeteries( ooppppsssss) seminaries. The so called 'church' is set up exactly as a business,why; because the 501c3 CORPORATION tax exempt status says so. Shalom Post Reply
Matthew75 View Profile History	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 20 Mar, 2014 06:31 PM Gracenotworkssaves... God Bless you. It has been a fun exercise as it has been a wile since I have had the opportunity to stretch by Bible muscles. >>Have you ever read and studied 1st Corinthians 14:23-34 I would say yes but would like to make a point that this should go all the way to verse 40... 40: "Let all things be done decently and in order" --- I agree with the rest of your comments in your last post. I will add however that spontaneous worship should be a daily thing. There is a time for studying and meditating and a time to sing and praise. Sunday morning tries to get both in full in just an hour or two and seriously falls short. It does however provide a place and time for those struggling and for the unbelievers to be introduced to the concepts that we should live by every day. Think of it as milk for babies. As we mature, we need to extend our praise and worship beyond Sunday morning and live it daily. As we grow, we need to get more than milk and dig into the scriptures for the real meat. Unfortunately, many never grow past the milk of Sunday morning and actually make it part of their daily lives. It has been a complaint of mine for years... that there is not enough life in the church. The whole week is spent in preparation for that two hour session on Sunday morning ( and some include an hour Sunday night and Wednesday night ). What about sharing our lives with each other? I have a difficult time feeling true fellowship with people who are not interested is spending time together outside the church. How do I share my praises and struggles with people who are effectively strangers? What triumph means anything to anybody who doesn't know what I've been struggling with? A pat on the back from a counselor is not the same as a congratulations from a heart felt friend who was there and watched you through your struggles. Yes, the modern church has its place. It is designed and structured for people new to the faith but servers as little more than that first step... There are very very few who are there to aid with step two or three. So I will not chastise the modern church structure as they server their purpose. But there really should be more. There should be a social life outside context of the structured church service. That is where most churches fail....and where a lot of your arguments pick up. There needs to be a community. That is what is missing. ( Though I have been to one and wish I could go back... but it's over 1000 miles away... not a place I can go to regularly. I thought it was totally awesome for the pastor to have a football party with open invitation to the church body to come watch the game and worship. Just wow. Social life with fellow believers is hard to come by. ) Post Reply
View Profile History	Elders or pastor SHEPHERDING the flock of GOD,what does the NEW COVENANT say about this Posted : 21 Mar, 2014 02:48 AM Hi Matthew: Thank you for your reply: I agree with you that there is very little FELLOWSHIP outside of the four walls,as i believe the so called leaders are not trusting Messiah with the spiritual growth of the body. Many are milk fed,and most do not want the responsibility of feeding themselves. IF taught properly,the body of believers would not need worship bands,nor do they need a man to be standing before them with the Word; Yet most have never been TAUGHT how to read the Word for themselves,nor have they been encouraged to meet together according to the Word of GOD. The fellowship i was with in Philadelphia had a plurality of Elders,there were three. All three taught,counseled,and had people over at their residence. There was a group that met at one elders house to learn HOW to read and study the Word of GOD. The home fellowships were open,as was the meeting Sunday mornings. People were encouraged to search the Word,and bring something to share Sunday morning,If someone shared something wrong others would come along side and talk with the person. The Elders even let people teach,after they had gone over what the person wanted to teach. People opened their home to others,and the fellowship would help others with things they have need of,like painting,plumbing,etc. I miss the fellowship,as i live in New Jersey,and the people here have no idea about true worship , or fellowship,nor do they understand about the PRIESTHOOD of BELIEVERS. I would recommend two books to you and others. Biblical Eldership, with the workbook; written by Alexander Strauch Worship the christians highest occupation; written by A.B.Gibbs I know these are books written by men,yet men whom the Holy Spirit had empowered to Biblically understand the subjects they had written about. I trust you will find true fellowship with the Saints near you. Shalom Post Reply

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