"The sovereignty of God. What do we mean by this expression? We mean the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the godhood of God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that God is God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible." - Arthur W. Pink
18 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 �Arise and go down to the potter�s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.� 3 Then I went down to the potter�s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 �O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?� says the Lord. �Look, as the clay is in the potter�s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Looks to me like God relents of his condemnations when people repent, like in the case of Nineveh. People repent, and God spares/saves them. This is also the original verse that Paul was quoting in Romans 9. It adds some clarity to the translation.
I'm affirming that God is sovereign, but it depends on how you define it, and either way, that in no way means he cannot change his mind or relent of his commands. Since he is sovereign, he can choose to create beings in his image, give them freedom of will, and stand ready to give mercy when any sinner is crushed by his law, broken by his love, and chooses to repent. It's related in the sense that, yes, God can overthrow any kingdom that he wishes, but in the cases where repentance and mercy are grasped, He relents and returns blessing where he was about to bring destruction, and vice-versa if there is no repentance. Why is this even an issue in a world where all are under the direct control of God? If He commands that a city should be destroyed, shouldn't the city be destroyed if God is totally sovereign? Ponder the following parable.
The Parable of the Two Sons
Matthew 21
28But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Why is the kingdom being taken from the nation to whom it was given? Weren't they "predestined"?
What is the defining characteristic of the nation which receives the kingdom of God?
"I'm affirming that God is sovereign, but it depends on how you define it" So define it.
"If He commands that a city should be destroyed, shouldn't the city be destroyed if God is totally sovereign?" Implication - God is NOT totally sovereign.
"that in no way means he cannot change his mind" - God does not and cannot change his mind. To explain this would require a discussion on philosophical metaphysics as it pertains to the immutability of God. It would also require discssion on the time/eternity distinction. I am not inclined to spend the time to explain all of this out. If you feel so inclined, you might seek out more on this on your own.
"Freedom of will" - define this - the continual suggestion is that the creaturely "freedom of will" allows the creature to "will" autonomously (separately and apart) from the will of God. I do not believe that you can show this idea to have any Biblical merit. If you feel so inclined, you might seek out Martin Luther's writings on the "bondage of the will". It is most thorough and more importantly thoroughly Biblical. I cannot improve upon Luther's most excellent thesis on this topic.
"When any sinner.....chooses to repent?" Implication: a sinner has the ability within himself to repent. Please show from Scripture that a sinner has any ability (apart from God) to repent on his own. Bare in mind, a command to do something in no way implies the ability to do it.
"Why is this even an issue in a world where all are under the direct control of God?" Are you suggesting that we are NOT directly under the control of God or affirming that we are?
"Why is the kingdom being taken from the nation to whom it was given?" Define kingdom - what does it consist of?
" Weren't they "predestined"?" Define predestined"
" Weren't they "predestined"?" Define predestined"
I know it is a Christian belief that they have replaced us Jews. I don�t know of any more false doctoring. I love all Christians while I grew up to hate you all. And that is not an understatement. What is predestination?
When Joseph reveals his identity (Genesis 45:4-5:7), a doctrinal statement is
being made: Although they thought they were selling him into slavery, what his
brothers were actually doing was furthering a national destiny. Despite all their
choices, the years spent in Potiphar�s household and the dungeons of Egypt,
God�s plan to use Joseph to further the nations redemption is what triumphs over
all. It is important to note the change of wording by Joseph when describing the
sale: Be not distressed for having sold me here, for it was to be a provider that
God sent me ahead of you (verse 5). To highlight this point is a verse from
Proverbs: Many designs are in man�s heart, but the counsel of God�only it will
prevail (19:21).
It seems from this saga that many Christians hold to the idea of predestination�
The notion that all has been determined in advance by the Almighty. And yet
Deuteronomy clearly states: I have placed before you life and death, a blessing
and a curse, that you should choose life (30:19). God is saying here that man
has free choice.
Predestination or free will? I subscribe to the idea that it remains a mystery, for
one can �prove� either side from Scripture. The fact is that human reason simply
cannot grasp the infinite wisdom of God. But anyone who thinks Jews have been cast away by G-d and there is a new Holy race of gentiles only is not only crazy BUT FOOLISH. FOR I AM A MESSIANIC Jew and there are thousands if us!!!
Scripture makes no attempt to harmonize the moral freedom of the individual with
God�s effective control of all things, but remains content to affirm both.
Mcubed, I do not believe all Jews are cast off, the new testament is clear that the whole world, including Jews, are able to receive the kingdom. The only difference now is that instead of simply being genetic inheritors of the kingdom thru Abraham, the people who inherit the kingdom are the ones who believe in Christ and that bear fruit worthy of him, signifying that they have been changed by Christ. So instead of it just being Jews, it's anyone who bears the fruit of the kingdom, including Jews. God cut off Israel because of their lack of fruit, and grafted in the gentiles because they were bearing fruit, and Jews can be grafted in again if they bear fruit. Most of the apostles were Jews.
IWalkAlone:
"Freedom of will" - define this - the continual suggestion is that the creaturely "freedom of will" allows the creature to "will" autonomously (separately and apart) from the will of God. I do not believe that you can show this idea to have any Biblical merit."
:bouncy: I'd rather stick with "Sola Scriptura". Martin Luther, great christian and reformer that he was, was still largely Catholic in his beliefs, and endorsed cutting out parts of Scripture that he didn't agree with. As far as defining freedom of will, God created men with a choice at the very beginning. Obey or disobey. He gave them freedom to choose to follow him or not, and that theme is repeated thousands of times throughout the bible and in all of Jesus's parables. It hugely outnumbers any text to the contrary, and if you look up things like Romans 9(the potter), and find out that Paul was referencing an old testament verse which clearly defines that choice once again, that makes me want to stand on the side of the weight of scripture. Can you show me a scripture where God takes away that freedom of will? I do agree that men reach points where they do not follow after God, and would never choose to do so without direct intervention from God, but that does not preclude free will, it just endorses God's great love, that while we were sinners, he still gave his only son. I also believe that God knows the future, and has prophesied that He will be victorious over sin, so in reality, our will is never separated from God's will, but that does not mean that it isn't free like He originally created it to be.
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
IWA: "Implication: a sinner has the ability within himself to repent."
:bouncy:Again, scripture commands and endorses this everywhere, and the argument that a command does not express ability to execute that command is basically an argument from silence. I do agree though, that men cannot repent without direct intervention from God, but again, that does not preclude free will. The goodness of God shown through the sacrifice of Jesus is how God brings repentance to us.
"Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."
"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"
"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."
"For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame."
"God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
"And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he [is] not a man, that he should repent."
"When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."
IWA: "Why is the kingdom being taken from the nation to whom it was given?" Define kingdom - what does it consist of?"
:bouncy: Those who bear the fruit of the kingdom, those who bear the fruit of a transformed life. Not simply "believers", Satan believes.
"Do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, �Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.� Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[a] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."
IWA: "Weren't they "predestined"?" Define predestined"
Predestined by what I assume are your beliefs = God elected specific people before the foundation of the world.
Predestination by my beliefs = God collectively elected people before the foundation of the world, through his foreknowledge, but that does not preclude legitimate faith that eventually commits spiritual adultery as in the case of the Israelites and described in the parable of the sower.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
If you think that Jews an be saved just by having fruit (or anyone for that matter) that is very sad. All mankind Jew/Non Jew must receive Y-eshua as Lord. There is no other name under heaven in which a man can be saved... No matter how "righteous" he/she is. Most all people who work there way into heaven look like they have most excellent fruit!!!
