The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
Premise 1- All the sins of all men.
Premise 2- All the sins of some men (the elect), or
Premise 3- Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said�
a. That if the third premise is true, all men have some sins
to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second premise is true, the Christ,
in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect
in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first premise is true, why are not all men free from
the punishment due unto their sins? You answer. Because of �unbelief�. I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ either suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did die for the sin of �unbelief�, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not die for their sin of �unbelief�, then He did not die for all their sins!
LTM - I can "relate" to your post. See, there was a time many many years ago when I was just as you are now. When we are born again, we are as little babies in Christ and little by little we become children. This is the state that you are professing from your mouth. I agree with you, you are somewhere between a baby and a "little child" in the faith. Be encouraged, you will not always be on milk. Nor, will you always be as a "child". By continuing to read, study, and meditate on the Word, you will grow. It's a process that comes line upon line, precept upon precept but someday many years from now, when you reach more of a maturity, you will look back to this post and understand what I have tried to explain to you here now.
When your maturity comes, you will think and reason as a man and not as a child or as a woman (by some emotional impulse). In fact, you will no longer be ruled by what you are now calling emotions but instead you will eventually have a "sound mind" - the mind of Christ able to "reason together" as the Bible says.
When your maturity comes, you will desire to promote the Truth of the Word of God over your own practical opinions. You will desire to see God glorified rather than yourself and your own "faith" ideas.
Someday in the future, when you have become a mature man in the faith, you will understand completely that it is God's Word that does not return void and that your own words and opinion, expressions of your personal faith, etc that will return void. This is why we are told to preach the Gospel and make disciples - we are admonished to teach the "whole counsel of God". The Bible does NOT command us to go out and promote ourselves or our own practical thinking over a matter but rather to echo what the Bible teaches in clear and direct fashion.
Look at the example of Jesus when tempted by Satan. Did Jesus answer him, "Let me tell you something practical about my personal faith and try to relate with you?" or did he say, " It is written......" and quote and promote the Word of God itself. When this day comes, you will be able to teach using Scripture and expound on the meaning and hidden understanding of the Scripture rather than promoting such "babyish personal expressions"
Here are some Scriptures for you to meditate on:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (mature) " Hebrews 5:12-14.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men 1 Cor. 14:20
I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 1 John 2:14
LTM - Your post and your comments brought me back many many years to my childhood. We use to sing this song back then in Sunday School "Jesus Loves Me This I Know". You should look it up and read the lyrics if you aren't familiar with it. I think you will really be able to relate with it with where you are right now in your faith.
"But if the first premise is true, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer. Because of �unbelief�. I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ either suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did die for the sin of �unbelief�, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not die for their sin of �unbelief�, then He did not die for all their sins!"
:bouncy: I just can't even wrap my mind around this, this is the most illogical argument I've seen yet, and I notice that it's devoid of any biblical foundation. In the bible, it's completely obvious that we must believe to be saved from our sin. Christ's sacrifice is not applied universally, it's available universally. When Christ died, forgiveness wasn't just thrown around to everyone, ONLY those who believe and repent will be saved.
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
"Then he brought them out and said, �Sirs, what must I do to be saved?� And they said, �Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.�
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
This is one of those doctrines that should have no contention. I know many Calvinists, and even Calvin himself, that believe Jesus' sacrifice was large enough for the entire world to leave sinners without excuse, even though they believe it was only effective for the elect. All this theo-illogical contriving should be easily avoided.
John Calvin on Limited Atonement by Peter Lumpkins
It remains strange how many Calvinists seem to suggest that Calvinism is such a natural hermeneutic when it comes to interpreting Scripture. Sometimes one gets the impression from strict Calvinists that the classic five points are so clear, so basic, and so incontrovertibly biblical that to question any single petal of the TULIP is to question Scripture itself...the gospel itself...
More interesting is the theological ambiguity which Calvinism�s founder, John Calvin, possessed toward at least one of the famous five points�Limited Atonement. As the selected quotes from Calvin�s Commentaries will show, Calvin evidently did not hold to the unalterable view of Definite Atonement that his modern day disciples have inherited.
The quotes are taken from Calvin�s Commentaries available here and the Scripture passages are from the ESV.
First, in Matthew 26.28 [Mark 14:24], as Christ instituted the Holy Supper, He spoke to His disciples these words: �for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.� Of the blood that would be poured out for the �many� Calvin writes:
�By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse...when we approach to the holy table, let us not only remember in general that the world has been redeemed by the blood of Christ, but let every one consider for himself that his own sins have been expiated.� (All emphasis now and throughout, mine).
Second, when John the Apostle pointed others to the Messiah, he cried: �Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.� (John 1.29). Calvin�s comment is instructive. He writes:
�And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race� and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God�Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.�
Third, Calvin writes of John 3. 14-16:
��that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish�And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life��
Observe Calvin who notes that all are invited �without exception� not merely �without distinction� as some seem prone to suggest.
Fourth, one of the things that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would accomplish when He came from the Father would be to convict the �world� of sin. John records: �And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me�� (John 16.8-11).
Of this verse, Calvin comments:
��Under the term world are, I think, included not only those who would be truly converted to Christ, but hypocrites and reprobates.�
Here the Holy Spirit, according to Calvin, works conviction in the hearts of all men.
Fifth, moving on to a significant verse in the Apostle Paul, we find: �Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.� (Romans 5.18). Here, Calvin is most clear. He writes:
�He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him.�
Sixth, Paul records in Galatians these words concerning those who hindered the believer�s walk with God: �I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!� (Gal.5.12). In a lengthy comment, Calvin seems most clear what he thinks the Apostle has in mind. But even clearer is Calvin�s insistence Christ paid for the sins of the whole world. Note Calvin�s words carefully:
�His indignation proceeds still farther, and he prays for destruction on those impostors by whom the Galatians had been deceived. The word, "cut off," appears to be employed in allusion to the circumcision which they pressed. "They tear the church for the sake of circumcision: I wish they were entirely cut off." Chrysostom favors this opinion. But how can such an imprecation be reconciled with the mildness of an apostle, who ought to wish that all should be saved, and that not a single person should perish? So far as men are concerned, I admit the force of this argument; for it is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world.�
Seventh, Paul again writes of forgiveness in the Colossians correspondence. Says the Apostle: �in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.� (Col.1.14). Hear Calvin�s clear comment about exactly whose sin Christ expiated:
�He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated.�
These represent some of the many statements in John Calvin that cause not a little difficulty for those who not only believe the Geneva don himself unwaveringly embraced the doctrine of Limited Atonement, but also those who themselves unwaveringly hold to the questionable doctrine. It appears at least odd that modern strict Calvinists apparently are, at least in some ways, more Calvinist than John Calvin.
With that, I am�
Peter
:bouncy: Here's the link to the website so you can follow the links to Calvin's commentary if you so choose.
Well Mark, you have proven that I am not a follower of John Calvin (the man) which I have said many times. You have also highlighted how utterly stupid it is from my perspective when people argue that others here follow Calvin and that he was a heretic and a murderer, etc. There are many points that I disagree with Calvin over. In fact, it could be said that Calvin was not even a "Calvinist". Thanks for exposing the utter foolishness of the whole thing. I've always wondered when anyone would actually go read something of Calvins. In fact, many moons ago, I even posted part of his commentary on John 3:16 with the point of showing that he held a diff. view than I do. -- just another thing nobody bothered to read.
Ok, then can you show me how Calvin is wrong on this point?:laugh: The absurdity of the argument in this article is pretty plain to me, I'm very interested in how this gets worked out.
CERTAINLY THE FUTURE FALSE PROPHET OF 666{OBAMA??} WOULD LIKE TO START WORLD WAR III TO PUT THE WORLD IN COMPLETE CHAOS!!
(Reuters) - Russia is sending more naval vessels to the coast of Syria, state news agencies reported on Friday, in a move Moscow says will help prevent a threatened U.S. attack on its *ALLY* President Bashar al-Assad.
The Russian Defense Ministry says, "Our navy vessels are a guarantee of stability, guarantee of peace, an attempt to hold back other forces ready to start military action in the region."
Will the following prophecy in Isaiah 17:1,3 take place soon and is it related to the beginning of the 1260-day Great tribulation???
Isaiah 17:1,3: The Lord says, "See, DAMASCUS will NO LONGER be a city but will become a heap of ruins....The fortified city will DISAPPEAR from Ephraim and royal power from DAMASCUS!!"
THE DISCIPLES ASKED JESUS, �WHAT WILL BE THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE??�
Matthew 24:3,6-13: The disciples asked Jesus, �What will be the sign of your Coming and the *END OF THE AGE*?? Jesus answered�....You will hear of wars and rumors of wars,{Luke 21:9 adds *AND REVOLUTIONS*} but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen first, but the end is still to come.... {During the 1260-day Great Tribulation} �Then *YOU* will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and *YOU will be hated by all nations because of Me. At that time many will turn away from the Faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of *MOST* will grow cold,{THE GREAT APOSTASY} but he {The Called, Chosen & Faithful-Rev 17:14b} who stands firm to the *END will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to *ALL NATIONS*, and then the *END will come!�
