I wonder what it will take for many Christians to stop believing the lies they are taught in their churches and start really seeking the Truth. It took a nearly fatal car accident for me. Although, nearly 20 months ago, I was on a journey full of questions and I was seeking answers, I did not understand what I was seeking until I was lying in the dirt, barely breathing, wondering if I would live long enough to get to the hospital that I found peace in knowing I had found my path and I would live to walk more of it.
Why do Christians believe in and practice things that are not in the Bible? Why do they cling to denominational and doctrinal stupidity? What is it that keeps them tied up in the chains of doctrinal bondage while they talk about their freedom in Christ? They have no idea what they are talking about!
Furthermore, not only are they tangled up in deception, they make every effort to convince other Christians that they are more right than anyone else in Christendom. They judge whether or not other "believers" are really Christians or not and they condemn anyone that has a view that opposes or challenges their view. As if that is not bad enough, they bring even more condemnation onto no- believers. I may be wrong , no I'm not, but condemnation is the work of the Holy spirit not the the Holier than thou spirit!
There is no reason for any Christian to listen to anyone else that has a different view of Truth because it is obvious that the other person does not believe the Truth. Both condemn the other and relegate them to hell. Maybe they will meet their at one of the Friday night "fellowships". I hope it's a potluck!
If they don't line up and run down the aisle to confess their sins and ask Jesus into their hearts, give their life to Christ, make Jesus the King of their life, whatever, get baptized by immersion, speak in tongues, preach the gospel, take a stand against their favorite sin, cast out demons, stand on their head in a bowl of spaghetti or whatever it is their denomination says proves they are a Christian then they are not a Christian. Are you kidding me?
Well, the truth is they they are all Christians but they are certainly not all followers of Jesus. They do not love their neighbors as themselves, they do not love God and they are more concerned about their agenda and the propagation of it than anything else.
This forum is a good example of just this kind of Christian. Many of you are more interested in your denominational agenda, doctrinal insanity and pagan rituals than in actually hearing, learning and practicing the real Truth of the Scriptures. I wonder what a real discussion about what it means to follow Jesus would sound like. No one actually has an opinion of their own. They would just copy and paste Bible verses about it. Why? Because they have no real experience following Jesus but lots of experience rattling off their religious rhetoric and nonsense. You replace worship with songs that make you feel good, prayers that sound spiritual and you replace meditation with, well, the Church doesn't teach us how to meditate so most of you probably don't meditate so never mind. (We'll have to turn to the Buddhists for those lessons.)
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE between a spiritual quest to become like Jesus and being a Christian? Have you really asked God and His Word if what you believe is true or are you taking the word of a teacher, (a man or woman), that is telling you what the Bible says? Is your Bible study about filling the blanks with the right answers or are you looking for the right answers without the study guide? The Bible says you don't need a man to teach you because the Holy Spirit is your teacher. If that is the case, your religion would look a lot different than it does, wouldn't it? I know, if you started practicing and living Biblical Truth you'd have to stop going to your church because you would find, as I have, that you can't sit through an entire service without becoming ill. And you'd rather feel good about you and your church friends and your "fellowships" and traditions than actually become involved with the truth, wouldn't you? Well, knock yourselves out. After all it's only religion so it can't be all true, I mean bad, and maybe you know it but you don't want to make waves, lose friends or whatever your excuse might be.
The point is, Jesus was not a Christian and He did not call us to be Christians. That was Paul's idea. Really, it was, read the Book again. Jesus called us to be loving and kind people. He wants us to transcend religion, like He did. Rise above the traditions and the foolishness of religious trappings and simply live in a realm of love and inner peace with God. Live in the joy of the knowledge of God. Find your fulfillment in a spiritual realm called the Kingdom of Heaven. It is right here in front of you full of joy and healing and fulfillment. Christianity doesn't offer those things. Only Jesus does. Christianity is just another religion, a label, a real real eyesore to God compared to the ideal set forth for us by Jesus. Follow Jesus, not the Pope, not the Pastor, not the Author, TV preacher, Evangelist, Deacon or Elder. Put down your library and listen to the voice of Jesus calling you to live with your inner self in His presence. Capture the Truth for yourself on your own without your religion telling you what to do and how to do it. This was the message of Jesus: The transcendence over religion's rules and regulations, traditions and practices. Simply love your God and love your neighbor. Do these things and you will fulfill all the commandments of God. You will be like Jesus. If you follow your religion, well, you get to be like the Pope!! (Not that the Pope is a bad guy, he is just a political/religious figure and not a spiritual figure) Stop feeding people your agenda and start feeding them Jesus. Your religion is not calling out, "follow me" but Jesus still is.
Is this your own personal catharsis? Is it liberating to lash out against all of us pathetic "Christians" who still think that doctrine and praxis matter? Must we elect to become syncretists as you have in order to find the "truth"? I am just asking because this is how your comments came across to me.
You said:
"Many of you are more interested in your denominational agenda, doctrinal insanity and pagan rituals than in actually hearing, learning and practicing the real Truth of the Scriptures. I wonder what a real discussion about what it means to follow Jesus would sound like. No one actually has an opinion of their own. They would just copy and paste Bible verses about it. Why? Because they have no real experience following Jesus but lots of experience rattling off their religious rhetoric and nonsense."
I personally have no denomination, my doctrine is NOT insanity and I am not involved in any pagan rituals. I personally have dedicated thousands of hours to studying and learning the real truth of Scriptures. I personally have many opinions of my own that are a direct result of personal study. Many of my opinions differ from just about everything that is taught in the church buildings. For all of the above reasons, I have not personally darkened the door of a church building in well over 10 years.
Having said that, my personal experience does not trump objective truth. Without objective truth, one has no way of interpreting personal experience. Existentialism is not "following Jesus"
You commit the logical fallacy of a false dichotomy by pitting "Christianity" against "following Jesus". I've explained this to you before. As long as you persist in this mindset, you are doing more to divide believers than to unite them in the faith delivered once and for all to the saints.
It would be almost impossible to engage in any meaningful dialogue with you on this or any other subject because you ultimately reject the infallibility of Scripture. Since we would not have a common axiom by which to deduce even the most basic principles of what it means to "follow Jesus", we are left with no common ground to "reason together" Am I wrong about this? I don't think I am.
This particular forum is riddled with ignorance, immaturity, and bad manners to be certain. I "feel" your frustration with that aspect of your expressions. However, it is also clear to me that your thread here is nothing more than another example of that. It does not transcend the status quo despite your best efforts.
I am personally all for adult discussion. However, I have never found that here. If you would personally like to post up a topic for discussion, feel free to do so. There are a small handful of new names and faces here. Perhaps, as a collective, we can all work together to change the direction of this forum.
"The point is, Jesus was not a Christian and He did not call us to be Christians. That was Paul's idea. Really, it was, read the Book again."
You are preaching division within the Bible rather than testifying to the harmony between all of the apostles and Jesus Christ. The word �Christian� means �Christ within� who gets His start in us through the power of the Cross that Paul taught every day of his ministry. Until you understand the truth of Paul's ministry you will never realize the fullness of Christ formed in you that is the high calling of our profession
Unlike the apostle chosen by men whom we never heard of again, Paul was chosen by God to be the 12th apostle. Paul, along with the other apostles has given to us within allegories and metaphors how one goes from bondage to the flesh to living a life free of sin doing the work God has called us to do. The work that God has called us to do is the same work the apostles did while they were on earth through first learning the truth and then teaching it to others. God will then take care of the �small stuff� including obvious signs of His approval our ministry with signs following that cannot be done by man.
You're slighting Paul is slighting God's choice, and is something I do not recommend.
I do agree with you that the doctrines of the church are pretty skewered. but the truth is unless you have a solution you are still part of the problem. You have presented an agenda but not a solution
We are called to stand up for and spread the truth. IF we don't do that to the best of our ability and knowledge, than we're not even a follower of Jesus. I have to agree with IWA unfortunately, I understand your frustration and I think that what you're saying is the truth, but it's hard to get past the hypocrisy in this post. You need to approach something like this with a different attitude.
OK Z, maybe we have discussed this in the past and maybe this is a bit of a rant. I am simply tired of this forum being a place to cut and paste doctrine, argue about who is ignorant and condemn those that don't want to play along. I personally have had very few good experiences with Christians.
If you feel lashed out at I cannot do anything about that. Is it any different than lashing out at those who do not agree with you? People get banned from this site because other "Christians" don't like their views or the way they "lash out". It's a forum not a gauntlet.
I do present a solution in this argument. I suggest you rise above your religion. Transcend the doctrine and dogma and follow Jesus in a truly spiritual manner.
Do I preach division in the Bible? Yes, to some extent. No one has proven to me yet that the majority of the New Testament is the Scripture to which it refers. There is no evidence given by the NT that it is inspired by God. Only the Gospels have the words of God in them. (Except for the quote by Paul about the "Last Supper". Which has been twisted to support a non-Biblical practice)
I don't know anyone personally on this forum. You don't know me either. If this feels like a personal attack to you then maybe you take yourself too seriously. I have studied the Bible for 50 years. I have been to Christian college, Talbot Seminary and a number of secular colleges. I am not an ignorant person nor am I a fool. I believe in God. I follow Jesus and treat others with love and kindness. Maybe I get a little heated on this forum but I like participating in it. If my views are different than yours then I think that's ok because it's ok with me if your views are different than mine.
If you want me to I'll break this down into smaller chunks and put them up for discussion. Division or unity is not my purpose. I'd like to see a Christian Church that abandons the fallacies of the Christian religion and teaches us what the Bible is really talking about. I'd like to hear some of that in this forum, but it doesn't come up very often and when it does it gets shot down or ignored. Statements are made with no evidence to support them, doctrine is preached that has no Biblical foundation and the ignorant are shunned by the arrogant.
Regardless of who or what we are, our dogma, doctrine and agenda are not as important as the hearts of people. Regardless of how right we think we are we cannot always be on the attack or the defensive. That is what I dislike about many Christians: their attitude that they are always right and the way they try to push their "rightness" onto the rest of the world. I'm not speaking about any one or two people in this forum. I 'm speaking generally and if you're not one of these Christians then don't take it personally. We are not told by Jesus that we are right. Jesus never argued his rightness. He simply spoke the Truth and people listened. He did not consider those who didn't listen as ignorant or stupid. He had compassion on all of them. He treated them all in the same way, with the same love and kindness.
"I personally have had very few good experiences with Christians."
Join the club, my friend. Since I was a child, I've had one awful experience after another with "Christians". This forum has been absolutely no exception. I have come to accept that I have no place in the "Christian" community. Why? because I am simply too invested in understanding the truth. That's very inconvenient to the 98% who do not like to hear that the Bible does not actually teach _______ (fill in the blank) but it teaches _______(fill in the blank).
For what it's worth, you have my personal apologies for whatever negativity (in various forms) that I have contributed to this particular forum. For the most part, I have simply stopped posting and engaging here. I think I've originated maybe 5-6 of the last 200+ threads. I owe a hearty thank you to all of those who worked so hard to drive me (:devil:) out of this forum.
Onward and upward gents!! Your OP was a success in that it flushed out at least 3 men who I am confident are truth seekers and willing to play nice in the sandbox while having deeper discussions about the things of God. That should be encouraging.
For me, it's not worth spending any more energy talking about the deficiencies of the forums or it's contributors. It's old news, IMO. Perhaps, as a collective, we can all work together to change the direction of this forum. I'd be up for that. Other than that, I don't have much more to contribute here anymore.
@ Mark -- It's not that unfortunate that you have to agree with me once in a great while. :laugh:
WOW...:applause:...SBD...could't have said it anymore simpler...this is exactly what many here struggle agianst...wanting and desiring to Openly discuss a wide range of Biblical Topics with out being Talked down to...Thanks for posting this...God Bless...xo
This is so hilarious, the poor victims here on this site are incredible. I guess i should not be surprised, being our society and most Churches of today breed victims. How one gets emotion out of a posted thread is beyond me.
"Regardless of who or what we are, our dogma, doctrine and agenda are not as important as the hearts of people. Regardless of how right we think we are we cannot always be on the attack or the defensive. That is what I dislike about many Christians: their attitude that they are always right and the way they try to push their "rightness" onto the rest of the world. I'm not speaking about any one or two people in this forum. I 'm speaking generally and if you're not one of these Christians then don't take it personally. We are not told by Jesus that we are right. Jesus never argued his rightness. He simply spoke the Truth and people listened. He did not consider those who didn't listen as ignorant or stupid. He had compassion on all of them. He treated them all in the same way, with the same love and kindness."
Amen to that!
@IWA :laugh: Just a jab, sir. I agree with you on more things than you might think.
Why do Christians believe in and practice things that are not in the Bible? Why do they cling to denominational and doctrinal stupidity? What is it that keeps them tied up in the chains of doctrinal bondage while they talk about their freedom in Christ? They have no idea what they are talking about!
This is a great question! There are some doctrines in which we are to hold true. Paul said this is the gospel:
1 Cor 15:1-4 (NIV) Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you have received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
Now personally, I believe that even the Bible itself is the infallible, inerrant Word of G-d should be a doctrine that ALL CHRISTIANS HOLD TRUE but sooooo many of them, real Christians, believe in evolution when G-d�s Word CLEARLY STATES DIFFERENT� well� all I can say is OY VAY!!!!!! I know a lot of Christians that wouldn�t give to a beggar on the street but turn around and give a grand to a church on TV. Are they saved? Yes. I believe the person in need is the beggar not the church. Do I think there doctern is wrong? Yes. The same G-d judges us both. I know some that believe all healing is now on earth and if one is not healed there is something wrong with that person�s faith. I believe the kingdom of G-d is the here and not yet�. G-d does heal now (when He chooses) but all healing will come to all when Y-shua returns. The Bible clearly says drunkenness is a sin; some believe drinking at all is sin, others said a few is not. I am a Jew so I drink kosher wine for our holidays. I personally believe if drinking causes one to sin (sex, bad mouth, temper, and so on) well they shouldn�t drink. Can�t keep from sin while drinking alcohol� guess what DON�T DRINK!!!! What else is doctrine? Oh, was I predestined or was it by grace I got saved�. I don�t care I AM SAVED!!!!! I don�t care what you think once you find out man made doctern just as long as you are saved. Yes, I love you either way you got to know Y-shua. Is arguing about it fun? YOU BET!!!!! If I�m arguing about it with a saved person. Not saved won�t do it because that�s their defense to keep from becoming saved (I don�t think they know about that anyway). Now, let�s get to love� I have been so angry before with someone I kicked them out of my car and left them to figure it out for themselves, I have buried resentment so deep that to their face I was sooo nice and sweet but hated their very being. I have done great acts of kindness and love for people too. the point is I had to and did repent for the first two but I was still SAVED. The person that won�t give to the beggar wouldn�t spit on someone if they are on fire but will give thousands to missions. The former to me is a heartless person but love makes her give. She is a Christian. G-d deals with her different than me. I give to the beggar but don�t give thousands to missions. Of course I think love means do both.
No one actually has an opinion of their own. They would just copy and paste Bible verses about it. Why? Because they have no real experience following Jesus but lots of experience rattling off their religious rhetoric and nonsense.
Let me say this, my experience does not make the Bible right or wrong. If I had sex with 100 men tonight the Bible still says to fornicate. See truth is not relevant to my experience the WORD OF G-D IS ALWAYS TRUTH!!!!! My experience needs to be relative to the WORD OF G-D!!!! What I did at 18 when I first got saved is a far cry from what I do now 23 years later. His Word changed me! The WORD OF G-D IS ALIVE, THE LIVING TRUTH, AND SHARPER THAN A TOW EDGED SWARD!!!!! I�m grateful for quoted Scripture that is what changed people NOT MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, telling our testimony is important. It is by the power of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. But see I have to defend my experience but G-d defends His Word!!!!!!!
