Who here does not believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?
Posted : 23 Jan, 2019 09:49 PM
This idea of "once saved always saved" apparently comes from Calvinist lines of thinking and is even taught very strongly among non-Calvinist Baptists.
But the Bible says:
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Ezekiel 33
Who here does not believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?
Posted : 4 Feb, 2019 11:02 PM
I know the idea is false, as Scripture teaches. It is clear that the idea came from ancient heretics simply because the idea has been around a long time, as we know from history. My impression was that it came from the ancient heretics to most of those who believe it today through Calvinism.
I mentioned this at first because I thought it was strange that people who would otherwise not associate themselves with the heresies of Calvinism yet seem happy to concur with them in this particular heresy. I have heard a Baptist preaching against Calvinism say: "This is one thing the Calvinists got right."
If you read Isaiah 64 you see it contrasts him that "worketh righteousness" with the nation of Israel, whose righteousnesses were as filthy rags. Ezekiel uses similar language when he says that Judah justified Sodom, in that even Sodom was more righteous than Judah.
The idea that God is disgusted with our righteousness, based mainly on the misapplication of this one phrase, contradicts God's Word. For example: "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love" - Hebrews 6:10. It would be unrighteous for God not to regard our righteousness. "And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." - Matthew 10:42
Our righteousness cannot undo a single sin we have done, obviously. But this is not because we cannot do what pleases God, but because it is already due to him: "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10
According to the Bible we are justified by works in one sense, and not by works in another sense, and it clearly states it is not by faith only. Yet there are those who teach that it is not by works in any sense, and define themselves as those who believe it is by faith only. It is my impression that this comes from Luther, who wanted to remove the book of James because it hindered his wresting of the words of Paul (as Peter warned that unstable people would).
It is clear that the sense in which we are justified by works is that it is the condition for justification by Christ. "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." - John 15:14. "If" is conditional.
When God says "righteousness" we cannot assume he is talking about imputed righteousness unless he says he is, otherwise we would be adding our own words to Scripture, especially when he specifically says otherwise: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19-20
Nothing can separate us from the love of God. But if a person thinks that God loves all people equally, then he would love those that he casts into hell, and so this passage says nothing of salvation to that person.
But if a person believes according to Scripture that God loves the righteous he again has his answer. God's love cannot be overcome, but this does not mean he gives it to all. "All that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God." - Deuteronomy 25:16, "the abominable ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." - Revelation 21:8.
I do not know what verses you mean, and it would be a vast task to list all verses that touch on this, so I will bring one up which I have not heard discussed before: "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." - I John 3:15. So if a murderer had come to Christ before, one must either reject this Scripture, or reject that a person who comes to Christ is saved, or believe, as the Scripture says, that God will forsake those that forsake him.
Thank you for reading my long replies even when they are days behind!
Who here does not believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?
Posted : 5 Feb, 2019 12:56 PM
Thank you for the reply Patrick, it was very well written and it answered some of my concerns. But you said nothing contrary to the doctrines of Calvinism, at least to my knowledget and except for the charge of “heresy”, I think most Calvinists would agree with you. I don’t consider myself a Calvinist but I do consider John Calvin’s teaching, or at least most of it, falls well within the pale of orthodoxy. No contradiction of scripture has been adequately proven. That said, I’m not unaware of hyper-Calvinistic fringe groups. Maybe these are the people you’re referring to per your posts as “heretics”. As for Luther, he eventually accepted the book of James as part of the cannon.
I believe you’re on track doctrinally but you need to tie up loose ends. For example, your history has gaps in it and you would be wise getting up to speed. Apparently someone has convinced you that Calvinism is total heresy. I would encourage you to press these people into explaining “why” they they think this. Don’t let these people or anyone else off the hook just because they want to assert things without justification. I’ve found shallow teachers resent being questioned. Unfortunately, those in the habit of shooting off unfair accusations in one direction won’t hesitate doing the same in your direction. People who haven’t thought through their positions often feel threatened by questions. Nevertheless, they’re required biblically to give an answer. By “answer”, I do not mean offering a simple response!! A genuine answer is fact based and should sufficiently justify factually. Regrettably, some big talkers don’t know the difference between a fact and a subjective feeling
Who here does not believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?
Posted : 5 Feb, 2019 06:34 PM
None of us are perfect. We each should be striving each day to become better and better. You should have a change that happens in your life and you won't stop sinning completely but you should sin less. We will all fall and come short of God's glory.
God never turns His back on us but we can turn away from God. There are people who have abandoned their faith and turned against the gospel. Therefore once saved doesn't mean always saved.
Who here does not believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?
Posted : 6 Feb, 2019 05:45 PM
Patrick Lauser Quote:
Those who turn to God already have the rewards prepared for them, and they are chosen beforehand for these rewards.{???} But if God could make someone turn to him, everyone would.{???}
**FAITH, SALVATION THE HOLY SPIRIT AND ETERNAL LIFE ARE ALL FREE **GIFTS** OF GOD**
God's Word clearly teaches that faith, salvation, the Holy Spirit and eternal life are all 100 percent **FREE GIFTS OF GOD** and that the two main incentives for doing good works is being thankful to God for these amazing **FREE GIFTS** and to **EARN HEAVENLY ETERNAL REWARDS** which God has promised His chosen saints for faithful and loving service. Whereas those who believe in **SINLESS PERFECTION** believe that we have to earn our salvation and eternal life by doing **GOOD WORKS** and being **SINLESS** and that the only eternal reward is gaining eternal life by what we do; and if we commit even one small sin after we are saved we will loose our salvation and eternal life. And so man and not God becomes the Author and Finisher of our salvation.
And those who supposedly accept Jesus as their Savior and then completely **FALL AWAY** or are never **FRUITFUL** were never saved by God in the first place as per:
Matthew 13:20-22: Jesus says, "The seed falling on the rocky ground refers to someone who hears the Word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the Word, they **QUICKLY FALL AWAY**! The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the Word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the Word, making it **UNFRUITFUL**
John 15:16: Jesus says, You did not choose Me, but I **CHOSE YOU**and appointed you so that you might bear **FRUIT**--**FRUIT** that will last!!
Galatians 5:22,23: The **FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT** is love, joy, peace, forgiveness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control!
**SALVATION IS 100% FREE WHILE ETERNAL HEAVENLY REWARDS ARE 100% EARNED**!!
**SALVATION IS 100% FREE**
Titus 3:3,4: At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and **LOVE** of God our Savior appeared , He saved us, **NOT BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUS THINGS WE HAD DONE**, but because of **HIS MERCY**!!
John 1:12,13: To all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God--children born not of natural descent, **NOR OF A HUMAN DECISION** or a husband's will but, **BORN OF GOD**!!
John 6:37,39,44,65: Jesus says, "**ALL** that the Father gives Me **WILL** come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will **NEVER** drive away... And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall **LOSE NONE** of all that He has given Me, but raise them up at the Last Day.... No one can come to Me **UNLESS** the Father who sent Me **DRAWS HIM**, and I will raise him up at the Last Day!!... No one can come to Me **UNLESS** the Father has **ENABLED THEM**!!"
Ephesians 2:8,9: For it is by **GRACE** you have been saved, through **FAITH**—and this **NOT FROM YOURSELVES**, it is the **GIFT OF GOD**—not by works. So that no one can boast. For we are **GOD'S WORKMANSHIP**, created in Christ Jesus to do **GOOD WORKS**, which God prepared in advance for us to do!
Romans 12:3: For by the **GRACE GIVEN ME** I say to every one of you. Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourselves with sober judgment, in accordance with the **FAITH GOD HAS DISTRIBUTED TO EACH OF YOU**... We have different gifts, according to the **GRACE GIVEN TO EACH OF US**!!
Romans 9:15,16,18: God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy...Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. {But God's saints still preach God's Word to everyone}
John 15:16: Jesus says, You did not choose Me, but I **CHOSE YOU**and appointed you so that you might bear **FRUIT**--**FRUIT** that will last!!
Matthew 22:14: Jesus says, "MANY ARE INVITED**, but few are **CHOSEN**!"
Mar 13:20: Jesus says, "If the Lord had not cut short those days, no on would survive, but for the sake of the **ELECT**, whom He has **CHOSEN, He has shortened them!" {The Lord has shortened the Great Tribulation from 3 1/2 years or 1278 days to 1260 days}
John 13:18: Jesus says, "I am not referring to all of you, I know those I have **CHOSEN**!
Ephesians 1:4-8; 11,12: In love He **PREDESTINED** us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will--to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves, In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding... In Him we were also **CHOSEN**, having been **PREDESTINED** in accordance to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity to the purpose of His will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be to the **PRAISE OF HIS GLORY**!!
I Thessalonians 1:4: For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has **CHOSEN YOU**, because our Gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the **HOLY SPIRIT** and deep conviction!
I Peter 2:9: But you are a **CHOSEN PEOPLE**, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you might declare the praise of Him who **CALLED YOU** out of darkness into His wonderful light!!
Revelation 17:14: They will make war against the **LAMB** but the **LAMB** will overcome them because He is **LORD** of lords and **KING** of kings and with Him will be His **CALLED** **CHOSEN** and **FAITHFUL** followers!! {Riding on white horses right after the Marriage Feast of the **LAMB** as per Revelation 19:7-20!}
Romans 6:23: The wages of sin is death, but the **GIFT OF GOD** is **ETERNAL LIFE**!
God's Word clearly teaches that faith, salvation, the Holy Spirit and eternal life are all 100 percent **FREE GIFTS OF GOD** and that the two main incentives for doing good works is being thankful to God for these amazing **FREE GIFTS** and to **EARN HEAVENLY ETERNAL REWARDS** which God has promised His chosen saints for faithful and loving service. Whereas those who believe in **SINLESS PERFECTION** believe that we have to earn our salvation and eternal life by doing **GOOD WORKS** and being **SINLESS** and that the only eternal reward is gaining eternal life by what we do; and if we commit even one small sin after we are saved we will loose our salvation and eternal life. And so man and not God becomes the Author and Finisher of our salvation.
**BUT WHAT DOES GOD'S WORD SAY**??
** SALVATION IS 100 PERCENT **FREE** but **ETERNAL REWARDS** are 100 percent **EARNED**!!
Ephesians 6:8: Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will **REWARD** everyone for what ever good he does!
Revelation 22:12 Jesus says, “Behold I am coming soon! My **REWARD** is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done!”
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, “The Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels and **THEN** He will **REWARD** each person according to what he has done!”
Luke 11:33,34: Jesus says, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a **TREASURE** IN HEAVEN** that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your **TREASURE** is, there your **HEART** will be also!"
Luke 14:13,14: Jesus says, "When you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be **BLESSED**. Although they cannot repay you. you will be **REPAID AT THE RESURRECTION** of the righteous!"
2 Corinthians 5:9,10: We make it our goal to please Him... for we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15: His work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his **REWARD**. If it is burned up he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
How to Win Heavenly CROWNS:
I Corinthians 9:24-27: Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes in to strict training. They do it to get a **CROWN** that will not last; but we do it to get a **CROWN THAT WILL LAST FOREVER**! Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize!
2 John 1:8: Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be **REWARDED** fully!.
Revelation 3:11: Jesus says, “I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your **CROWN**!”
2 Timothy 4:7,8: I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the **CROWN** of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me **ON THAT DAY**—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for His appearing!
The **CROWN** of Life for those who persevere under trials and persecution:
James 1:12: Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the **CROWN OF LIFE** that God has promised to those who love Him!
Revelation 2:10 Jesus says, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer... Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the **CROWN OF LIFE**!”
Matthew 5:11,12: Jesus says, “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your **REWARD** **IN HEAVEN**!”
Hebrews 10:32-36: Remember those earlier days after you had received the Light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly **REWARDED**. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you receive what He has promised!
Who here does not believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?
Posted : 9 Feb, 2019 05:44 PM
**GOD REWARDS THOSE WHO EARNESTLY SEEK HIM WITH ALL THEIR **HEARTS**!
Luke 6:45: Jesus says, "A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his **HEART**, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his **HEART**. For the mouth speaks what the **HEART** is full of!"
Luke 10:27: "Love the Lord your God with **ALL YOUR HEART** and with all your mind and with all your strength and with all your mind!"
Luke 12:33,324: Jesus says, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor, provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is there your **HEART** will be also!"
Romans 1:9: God, whom I serve with all my **HEART** in preaching the Gospel of His Son, is my witness!
Romans 10:9,10: If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your **HEART** that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your **HEART** that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved!
Ephesians 6:6: Doing the will of God from your **HEART**!
Colossians 3:23: Slaves obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of **HEART** and reverence for the Lord!
Ephesians 3:16-19: I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your **HEARTS** through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord's saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge---that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God!
Galatians 4:L6,7: Because you are His sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into your **HEARTS**, the Spirit who calls out, Abba Father. So you are no longer a slave, but God's child, God has made you also an heir!
Colossians 3:1,2: Since, then, you have been raised with Christ set your **HEARTS** on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things!
Hebrews 10:16: "This is the Covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put My laws in their **HEARTS**, I will write them on their minds!"
Hebrews 11:6: Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must be believe that He exists and that He rewards those who **EARNESTLY SEEK HIM**!
Psalm 63:1: You God, are my God, **EARNESTLY I SEEK YOU*!! I thirst for You, my whole being longs for you!!
I Peter 1:22-25: Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other. love one another deeply from the **HEART**! For you have been **BORN AGAIN**, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, **THROUGH THE LIVING AND ENDURING WORD OF GOD**!! All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field, the grass withers and the flowers fail, but the **WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER**!!
Revelation 2::23: Jesus says, "I am He who searches **HEARTS** and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds!"
Matthew 6:31-34: Jesus says, "Do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?" or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But **SEEK FIRST HIS KINGDOM AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNES**, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself, each day has enough trouble of its own."
Jeremiah 29:11-13: "I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "Plans to give you a hope and a future. Then you will call on Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you **SEEK ME WITH ALL YOUR HEART**!"
Who here does not believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?
Posted : 21 Mar, 2019 12:31 AM
The Hebrew concept of the word "believe" is something you do and keep doing. Western thinking posits you can quit doing but still believe. Not so in Eastern thinking. (we are not talking perfection). In Hebrew thinking if you quit doing, you quit believing. Y'shua was Jew.
Why do you call me, `Lord! Lord!' but not do what I say? Everyone who comes to me, hears my words and acts on them ...
- Luke 6:46
Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
- Matt 7:21
Unless a person remains united with me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up. Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire, where they are burned up.
