I believe in Jesus as much as any Christian, maybe even more than some. What I doubt are the teachings and doctrines that come after Jesus. (See first post)
I'm fully aware of Jesus telling the disciples he had more to say but they couldn't currently bear to hear it and saying the Holy Spirit will come to guide us into all Truth. Yet such verses have been exploited to introduce all kinds of Christian heresies under the guise of further revelation.
It's not that I don't believe in further revelation, but where does a person draw the line? Some draw it at Church Traditions, some at the writings of the early Church Fathers, some at New Testament Scriptures, some at the teachings of Jesus. I am one that leans towards the last one; "the teachings of Jesus"
I think it is important to keep the main thing the main thing. However I don't judge others for their beliefs according to Church traditions, early Church writings or New Testament writings 'about' Jesus. What is interesting is how people judge me for Not agreeing with them on things that came after Jesus. Such people will try to deny my salvation, my Christianity and say even worse things leading me to doubt they are keeping the main thing the main thing.
Take for example the doctrine of the Trinity. I have no problems if some one chooses to agree with it. But did Jesus explicitly teach it was important to believe for salvation? No, he did not, therefore I place little importance on such a doctrine and try to stick to the teachings of Jesus.
If you’re interested, maybe we could start a brand new discussion from this thread onward.
I will make a serious effort to allow you to interpret your own words, ideas and thoughts. Perhaps you could agree to do the same for me.
But I’m sure, as errant human communication goes, I might inadvertently depart from this agreement. But if I do that (unintentionally), you’re welcome to rein me in and call me to account.
Ok, now to your thread.
First, my observation and then my questions regarding the contents of your thread and post.
I agree, as I understand them, to some of your statements above, especially regarding church traditions, church fathers and church writings.
However, I wasn’t exactly sure what you meant by the “New Testament writings ‘about’ Jesus” as opposed to the “teachings of Jesus”. And how is the later, if this is your opinion, “keeping the main thing the main thing.“
Also, unsure which is your “first post” you refered us to in the introduction thread .
Ok, now to some final questions.
In your opinion, how does the “Holy Spirt come to guide us in all Truth” and what is “further revelation” ? And would you supply at least a couple of the relevant biblical references?
WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW!! as *SAD*lup and Satan teach!!
Galatians 2:14-16,20,21; 3:2,5,10-13;23-25: Paul said, When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.!"
Galatians 2:20,21: The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3:10-13: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!"
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was weak and useless; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: "The time is coming." says the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".... By calling this Covenant "NEW", He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and aging will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is Mediator is SUPERIOR TO THE OLD ONE, and it is founded on better promises.
Colossians 2:16,17: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a *SHADOW* of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ!!!
Deuteronomy 18:17-19: The Lord said to Moses, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among your fellow Israelites, and I will put My words in His mouth. He will tell them **EVERYTHING** I command Him. I Myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My name!!"
John 14:21-24: Jesus says, "Whoever has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me... Anyone who loves Me will obey My teaching, My Father will love them, and We will come to them and make Our home with them.. Anyone who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not My own; they belong to the Father who sent Me!" {See Deut 18:17-19 above}
Luke 6:46-49: Jesus says, "As for everyone who comes to Me and hears **MY WORDS** and **PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE**. I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid foundation on rock. When the flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears **MY WORDS** and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete!"
I Peter 1:23-25: You have been **BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE LIVING AND ENDURING **WORD OF GOD**!! All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field, the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the **WORD OF THE LORD STANDS FOREVER**. And this is the **WORD** that was preached to you.
Matthew 24:35: Jesus says, Heaven and earth will pass away, but **MY WORDS WILL NEVER PASS AWAY**!"
I John 2:3-5: We know we have come to know Him {Jesus} if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone **OBEYS HIS WORD**, God's love is truly made complete in him!
Luke 8:15: Jesus says, "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the **WORD**, retain it, and by perseverance produce a crop."
Acts 20:32: Paul says, "Now I commit you to God and to the **WORD OF HIS GRACE**, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified!"
Romans 10:17: Consequently, **FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE**, and the message is heard **THROUGH THE WORD OF CHRIST**!
I Corinthians 15:2: By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the **WORD** preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain!
2 Corinthians 4:2: We do not use deception, nor do we distort the **WORD OF GOD**!
Ephesians 1:13: You also were included in Christ **WHEN** you heard the **WORD** of Truth, the gospel of your salvation.
Colossians 1:25: I have become its servant by the commission God gave to me to present to you the **WORD OF GOD IN ALL ITS FULLNESS**!
Colossians 3:16: Let the **WORD OF CHRIST** dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom!
I Thessalonians 2:13: We thank God continually because, when you received the **WORD OF GOD**, which you heard from us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the **WORD OF GOD**!
2 Timothy 3:15,16: 4:1,2: You have known the **HOLY SCRIPTURES**, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. **ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED** and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge: **PREACH THE WORD**!! {**WHICH IS THE ENTIRE NEW COVENANT AND NEW TESTAMENT**!!}
**DOES GOD"S WORD SAY THAT **ADDING** OR **TAKING WORD'S AWAY** FROM GOD's WORD IS AN UNPARDONABLE SIN**??
Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus. have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the Churches.... I warn everyone who hears the **WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK**: If anyone **ADDS** {Like the RC popes} anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this Book {Including **ETERNAL HELL**} And if anyone **TAKES WORDS AWAY** {Like the RC popes} from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book."
THE GREAT COMMISSION: Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on ***EARTH*** has been given to Me {Not some RC Pope}. Therefore go and make disciples of *ALL NATIONS*...teaching them to **OBEY EVERYTHING** I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very *END OF THE AGE*!”
Welcome back! It is a pleasure to sharpen iron with iron.
From what I think I know of you; you are now slouch when it comes to referencing Scripture. Therefore I often assume you know what Scripture I am referencing especially when I quote them partially word for word.
I appreciate your offer to start over and accept wholeheartedly. You must know by now there is a huge chasm between our beliefs. Yet I don't judge or doubt your salvation or relationship with God. While knowing the truth is valuable; it cannot save on its own. All knowledge will pass away - 1Cor 13:8. Our disagreements may seem to be about what is or is not true. But I assure you our disagreements are more about which truths are important as in effecting God's offer of eternal life.
You asked; "However, I wasn’t exactly sure what you meant by the “New Testament writings ‘about’ Jesus” as opposed to the “teachings of Jesus”. And how is the later, if this is your opinion, “keeping the main thing the main thing.“"
This will be no doubt hard for you to accept, nor is my intention to convince you. However we can talk about it. To answer:
I will preface: I view the New Testament (NT) much as Othrodox Jews view the Old Testament (Tanach =TNKH). As a Jew, the books of the TNKH are divided into three levels of authority or inspiration. In descending order:
#1)T=Torah
#2)N=Prophets
#3)KH=Writings
I view the NT in a similar fashion:
#1) The Gospels *specially Jesus' teachings
#2) The letters of those who personally knew Jesus; John, James, Peter, Jude
#3) The letters of Paul, which I view as Midrash.
This should explain why I value Jesus' teachings over Paul's teachings about Jesus. Not that Paul is wrong, but his teachings should always be interpreted in light of Jesus' teachings. And the teachings of Jesus should always be paramount.
I am well aware most believe every word of the Bible is the dictated word of God. I used to be in that camp. I do believe the Bible is inspired by God, not dictated. Therefore we must realize this and interpret it according to the historical context in which it was written.
To some, according to their beliefs; this is heresy. I think different; I think this is coming closer to the truth.
This then begs the questions; Who is Jesus? Who is Paul?
Jesus IS Messiah; we must listen to him.
Paul taught about the work of Messiah; he has valuable insights.
**THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS IS FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH ***LOVE***!!{Galatians 5:6}
**THE FATHER LOVES HIS FAITHUL SAINTS JUST AS MUCH AS HE LOVES JESUS**
John 17:23: Jesus says to His Father, "You sent Me and have **LOVED THEM** even as you **LOVED** Me!!"
**JESUS LOVES HIS FAITHFUL SAINTS **JUST AS MUCH** AS THE FATHER LOVES HIM**!!
John 15:9,10" Jesus says, "As the Father **LOVED** Me, so I have **LOVED** you!! Now remain in My **LOVE . **IF** you obey My commands, you will remain in My **LOVE**, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His **LOVE** !"
John 14:21,23: Jesus says, "Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who **LOVES** Me! He who loves Me will be **LOVED** by My Father, and I will **LOVE** him....If anyone **LOVES** Me, he will obey My teaching. My Father will **LOVE** him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him!!"
I John 3:18: Dear children, let us not **LOVE** with words or tongue but with actions and in truth!
WHAT'S **LOVE** GOT TO DO WITH IT??
I Peter 1:22: "Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere **LOVE** for your brothers, **LOVE** one another deeply, from the heart. For you have been born again... through the living and enduring Word of God!
I Peter 4:8: **ABOVE ALL**, **LOVE** each other **DEEPLY**, because **LOVE** covers over a multitude of sins!
I Corinthians 13:2,4-8: If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not **LOVE** I am nothing...**LOVE** is patient, **LOVE** is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. **LOVE** does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. **LOVE** never fails!!"
John 13:34: Jesus says, "A NEW command I give you: **LOVE* one another As I have **LOVED** you, so you must **LOVE** one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples." John 15:12,13: Jesus says, "My command is this: **LOVE** each other as I have **LOVED** you. Greater **LOVE** has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
I John 3:16: This how we know what **LOVE** is: Jesus Christ laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers!
Ephesians 5:1,2: Be **IMITATORS OF GOD**, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of **LOVE**, just as Christ **LOVED** us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God!
Luke 6:27,28,35,36: Jesus says, "**LOVE** your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. **LOVE** your enemies, do good to them. and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your **REWARD** will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful!"
Matthew 28:19.20” Jesus commands, “Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to *OBEY EVERYTHING* I have commanded you!” {See I John 2:3-5}
EVERYTHING would also include all the other commands in God's inspired Word from Acts to Revelation as per 2 Timothy 3:16: 4:2: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work...Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction."
If we really **LOVE** our brothers and sister in Christ we will lovingly teach them to obey all the approximately 400 commands of the NT with **LOVE** in the hope of countless eternal rewards when Jesus comes with great power with all His angels.
Revelation 22:112: Jesus says,"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done!?
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels, and **THEN** He will **REWARD** each person according to what he has done."
Ephesians 4:15: "Speaking the Truth in **LOVE** , we will in all things grow up into Him who is the Head, that is, Christ! From Him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in **LOVE** , as each part does its work."
Ephesians 3:17-19: "I pray that you, being rooted and established in **LOVE** may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the **LOVE** of Christ, and to know this **LOVE** that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God!!"
I John 4:7-12: Dear friends, let us **LOVE** one another, for **LOVE** comes from God. Everyone who **LOVES** has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not **LOVE** does not know God, because God is **LOVE**. This is how God showed His **LOVE**among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him. This is **LOVE**, not that we **LOVED** God, but that He **LOVED** us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so **LOVED** us, we ought to **LOVE** one another. No one has ever seen God, but if we **LOVE** one another, God lives in us and His **LOVE** is made complete in us!
Romans 8:35,37-39: Who shall separate us from the **LOVE** of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?...We are more than conquerors through Him who **LOVED** us! For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the **LOVE** of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord!!
Prophetic, please do not post on my thread, all you do is stop conversation with your obnoxiously long cut and paste. I will from now on report it as an abuse report to administrators and encourage everyone else to do the same until you stop abusing this section.
Prophetic, I was hoping to have a conversation wit LittleDavid and others without you butting in with off topic obnoxious cut and paste Scripture posts. Start your own thread.
"It's not that I don't believe in further revelation, but where does a person draw the line? Some draw it at Church Traditions, some at the writings of the early Church Fathers, some at New Testament Scriptures, some at the teachings of Jesus. I am one that leans towards the last one; "the teachings of Jesus".{**PERIOD???} {EXCEPT THOSE TEACHINGS OF JESUS WHICH CHANGED OT LAWS!!}
*SAD*lup believes we are saved by *WORKS* by keeping all of the OT LAWS which of course would include all the animal sacrifices for sins???
**THREE MORE RIDICULOUS SATANIC QUOTES BY *SAD*LUP**:
"I fully recognize since actual identity of Jesus is not explicitly taught; mine and everyone else's speculations as to his identity beyond that of Messiah are just that - *SPECULATIONS*', and should be treated as such."
"Apparently you do not understand the Scriptures you quote - they all support the premise that God was in Jesus, **NONE SUPPORT JESUS IS GOD**??"
Satan and *SAD*lup teach that **JESUS IS NOT GOD** or that the following words in the New Testament are **NOT INSPIRED BY GOD**. Since *SAD*lup has no answer to all of these **LIVING WORDS OF GOD** he continually attacks me for quoting **GOD'S WORD** which totally refutes and contradicts his Satanic beliefs!!
**IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST GOD**??
Jesus is called **GOD** 7 times in God's Word and is called **LORD** over 200 times in the New Testament, and is **WORSHIPED** 12 times in the New Testament, and God's Word tells us to only **WORSHIP GOD**!!
And in Hebrews 1:1-3,6,8; Paul is inspired to write: "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word... God says, "Let all God's angels **WORSHIP HIM**!!" and about His Son God says, "**YOUR THRONE**, **O GOD** will last for ever and ever!!"
Revelation 3:21,22: Jesus says, "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with Me on **MY THRONE**, just as I overcame and sat down with **MY FATHER ON HIS THRONE**!!
Isaiah 9:6,7: For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, **MIGHTY GOD** and Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's **THRONE** and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and **FOREVER**. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this!
John 1:1-4: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the **WORD WAS GOD** He was with God in the beginning. **THROUGH HIM** all things were made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
Colossians 1:15-18: The Son is the image of the invisible God. In Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created **THROUGH HIM** and **FOR HIM**!! He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the **HEAD** of the body, the church!!
John 1:18: No one has ever seen God, **BUT THE ONE AND ONLY SON**!! who is **HIMSELF GOD** and in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known!!
Titus 2:13-14: We wait for the **BLESSED HOPE**--the glorious appearing of our great **GOD AND SAVIOR**, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to glorify Himself a people that are **HIS VERY OWN**, eager to do what is good!
John 10:27-30: Jesus says, "My sheep listen to My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is **GREATER THAN ALL**; no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are **ONE**!"
John 20:27-29: Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger her, see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to Jesus, "**MY LORD** and **MY GOD**!: Then Jesus told him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed!"
Philippians 2:5-11: Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus. Who being in very nature **GOD**, did not consider **Equality with God something to be grasped... He humbled Himself--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him a name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that**JESUS IS LORD**, to the glory of God the father!!
Colossians 2:9,10: For in Christ **ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE DEITY LIVES** in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the **HEAD**over every power and authority!!
I John 5:20: We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him {The *FATHER*} who is true. and we are in Him who is true by being in **HIS SON** Jesus Christ. He is **TRUE GOD** and eternal life!!
"*SAD*lup believes we are saved by *WORKS* by keeping all of the OT LAWS which of course would include all the animal sacrifices for sins???"
I say, prove it or confess, apologize and repent.
You can't even prove Paul wrote Hebrews or a number of other things you say. But let's start with these two things and see who is telling the truth and who is spreading falsehoods.
