ARMINIAN SPEAKING;gee,Im so glad that I made that decision to follow christ cuz if I hadnt done that I wouldnt be saved,Im really a clever person because I was able to choose god,and my neghbor is not as smart as me,thankyou god for making me smarter than my neighbor so in all of MY great wisdom I was able to see the wisdom in following you!
calvinist speaking:thankYOU lord for opening my eyes oh lord,for without YOUR grace and mercy,i would still be dead in my tresspasses and sin,YOU regenerated my mind,took away my heart of stone,And YOU gave me a heart of flesh,thankYOU oh lord for saving a wretch like me,in JESUS NAME AMEN
I've only just realized that there was this argument going on...and I've only had a little argument with one "Calvinist". But they were saying that we have no choice. We're already predestined to be saved or lost. And my question was....why are there verses like these in the Bible? Mat 6:14-15.
14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matt. 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 10:32-33
Mat 12:50
Mat 16:27
Mat 18:35
Mat 19:29
Mar 8:38
Mar 9:24
Luk 14:26
Luk 23:34
Jhn 6:27
Jhn 14:12
Jhn 14:21
Jhn 14:23
Jhn 14:24
Jhn 15:10
Jhn 16:27
Acts 5:-1-10
Mat 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
If it's not God's will that any should perish, then who's will is it?!
And what about this parable? Sounds like an example of salvation doesn't it?
Luk 15:17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
I'm getting tired of looking them up...but I hope you can see that we do need to do something, or we're lost....even if we had salvation already. So if you apply all those scriptures to your predestination scriptures...and "rightly divide the words of truth"...what do you come up with? It tells me that the predestination verses must be talking about something else....like "no man can snatch a saved person out of God's hand". True. If you're saved God protects you. But if you willingly disobey the commandments...or stop loving God...or (insert all those bible verses here)....God isn't going to protect you anymore...and He lets go, because He cannot tolerate "willing disobedience". Anyway....that was just one example of what else it might mean. I could be twisting it just like you could be twisting it. 2 Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." But are you sure it's not you? If you are, then that's fine. Just make sure you're sure. You just have to be careful about saying someone else is wrong and you are right. Because really....that does sound like a presumptuous Calvinist. Everybody is wrong but you.:dunce::winksmile:
DontHitThatMark, Calvinists don't believe in not having free will. Our free will is limited, and we can't come to Christ unless the Father enables us to first (John 6:44).
None of the free will verses contradict Calvinism because all of those will come to pass as a result of God enabling us to.
Furthermore, it is true that no one can snatch us out of God's hand, but you are confusing how God SAVES us.
THE ORDER OF SALVATION �
1. ELECTION � God�s choice of people to be saved
The act of God before creation in which He chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any unforeseen merit in them, but only because of His Sovereign good pleasure.
2. THE EFFECTUAL CALL � Proclaiming the message of the Gospel
The Effectual Call is an act of God the Father speaking through the human proclamation of the gospel, in which He summons people to Himself in such a way that they respond in saving faith.
3. REGENERATION � Being Born Again.
Regeneration is a secret act of God in which Him imparts (inplants) new spiritual life to us.
4. CONVERSION � Faith and Repentance
Conversion is our willing response to the gospel call, in which we sincerely repent of sins and place our trust in Christ for Salvation.
5. JUSTIFICATION � Right legal standing.
Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which He: 1. Thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ�s righteousness as belonging to us, and 2. Declares us to be righteous in His sight.
6. ADOPTION � Membership in God�s family.
Adoption is an act of God whereby He makes us members of his family.
7. SANCTIFICATION � Right conduct of life.
Sanctification is a progressive work of God and man that makes us more and more free from sin and like Christ in our actual lives.
8. PERSEVERANCE � Remaining a Christian.
Perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God�s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
9. DEATH � Going to be with the Lord.
Death is a temporary cessation of bodily life and a separation of the soul from the body. Once the believer has died, though his or her physical body remains here on the earth and is buried, at the moment of death the soul (or spirit) of the believer goes immediately into the presence of God with rejoicing.
10. GLORIFICATION � Receiving a resurrection body.
Glorification is the final step in the application of redemption. It will happen when Christ returns and raises from the dead the bodies of all believers for all time who have died, and reunites them with their souls, and changes the bodies of all believers at the same time perfect resurrection bodies like his own.
The "Calvinists" you're arguing against have little understanding of their own doctrine.
Belief in Calvinism is NOT a denial of free will.
It comes down the the idolatry of decisional salvation. You WANT to feel like you're in control. Well, I'm sorry but you're not. None of use deserve to be saved, and to think that a sinner would just wake up one morning and say, "I think I'll get saved today!" is ridiculous and absurd on so many levels.
Ok, I'm just going to post what I had in another forum... People keep regurgitating John 3:16 and pick Scriptures out of context so I'm going to end this.
Yes, God so loved the WORLD, but if you read the whole passage it's ultimately limited to those who eventually believe. In Strong's Lexicon, this is what is cited:
(world)kosmos:
8b. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
Notice the author cited extra verses next to this definition to clear up the common misconception that "world" means the exact same thing in all passages of Scripture.
Remember also, that faith and the ability to believe is a gift.
"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake." - Philippians 1:29 (KJV)
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." - Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." - John 10:15 (KJV)
It couldn't be any clearer that Christ died for the sheep only. Can people decide to be sheep? NO! The shepherd chooses his own sheep.
Regarding 1 Peter 3:9, you must read it in CONTEXT.
In 2 Peter 3:9, who is the author addressing? Everyone in the whole world? Scroll back up to verse 8, and... Aha! He's talking to the "beloved". If you want even further proof, go back to the beginning of 1 Peter. You can clearly see that it is addressing God's ELECT!
Now, I'm sure this will not be enough to convince you, so let's go into the Greek.
Now, the word "all" is "pas" in Greek. And just like "kosmos", there is a definition cited that is "some of all types". Now this just means some of all types of people, irrespective of race, gender, social class, etc. Remember in other Scriptures it talks about salvation not only available to the Jew, but the Greek also. Remember, CROSS REFERENCING!
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16 (KJV)
Now, another word we should look at is the word "some". Being "tis" in Greek, this is referenced as Strong's number 5100. Now, if we look at the word "any", we can see that it turns out to be the SAME Greek word! It is also referenced as "tis", or number 5100.
Now in the proper context, this is translated as "a certain one", or "certain ones".
This part literally reads: "The Lord is not willing that certain ones should perish."
As I mentioned earlier, the word for "all" in Greek is "pas". If you look into Strong's Concordance, the Greek scholar himself cites at the bottom that this word is almost always translated as "some of all types", and almost never translated to mean everyone in the entire world.
Strong writes: "... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ..."
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." - John 1:10 (KJV)
Are you going to say that here the world means "everyone who ever lived"?
How about here:
"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing." - John 18:20 (KJV)
Does "the world" here mean "everyone who ever lived"?
No, of course not. In the first case it means "the world of the unbelievers" and in the second case it means "publicly without hiding".
In the same way, John 3:16, as I demonstrated earlier, refers to "the world of the believers".
I could not agree with you more, HisAlways, on what Romans 10:13 says and elsewhere about salvation.
Yes, WHOSOEVER, and WHOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved; but how is it really? Are men capable in their unconverted state to seek after God?
"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." - Romans 3:11 (KJV)
We are DEAD in our trespasses and sins, and our heart is only inclined towards evil, and we are in bondage to it. We still have a free will, but think of it as being limited, since the heart of man will never want to seek the things of God.
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" - Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." - Genesis 6:5 (KJV)
So does God choose anyone for salvation? Certainly!
"For many are called, but few are chosen." - Matthew 22:14 (KJV)
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." - Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." - Ephesians 1:11 (KJV)
You must understand that God is sovereign and we are not. The idolatry of decisional regeneration is not taught at all in Scripture.
I would encourage you to read Romans 9. God has vessels of wrath fitted to destruction as well as vessels of mercy.
His ways are not our ways! You must understand that double predestination, when defined rightly is Biblical. When God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, this was PASSIVE intervention, because Pharaoh was already inclined towards evil. This is a righteous act of judgment on God's part; and if we cross reference:
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature." - Romans 1:26 (KJV)
We can see here that it is not an evil thing to give someone over to the sin they love. This is a dreadful judgment of God.
The antithesis is different however. The only way ANYONE can be saved is if God intervenes ACTIVELY in our lives to enable us to. Remember, salvation is an act of God, and not a collective effort.
Is God loving to everyone in the world? Yes! This is what we call the doctrine of common grace. You must realize that just the mere fact that we can eat good, breathe air, or have rain fall on us is a loving act from God.
However, God's love is only manifest in the greatest way to His children, or those who are in Christ.
In the end, Christ's death was sufficient to pay for the sins of everyone who ever lived, but only efficient for the elect.
EXEGESIS OF ROMANS 8:29:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." - Romans 8:29 (KJV)
Many people will claim that the word "foreknow" is just referring to God's foreknowledge of an event; but since we know that all men are limited in their free will, they will never seek God on their own.
The Greek word "proginosko", which is "foreknow", has 3 definitions cited in Strong's:
1. to have knowledge before hand
2. to foreknow
a. of those whom God elected to salvation
3. to predestinate
Now, due to the nature of the grammar of this sentence, it is an ACTIVE verb, or something that God does, and the Greek syntax is not passive. It is further proven by the fact that God's "foreknowing", is an intimate knowledge, not a general knowledge.
In this case, definition 2a. is the correct application in the context:
2a. to foreknow; of those whom God elected to salvation
We can also cross reference to such places as Romans 8:28:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." - Romans 8:28 (KJV)
Notice in the verses I'm presenting, how everything is focused upon God's doing, and not man.
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:30 (KJV)
DontHitThatMark, I gave some example of proper exegesis of types of verses you would like to use to discount Calvinism.
I don't feel like going through every point you made right now, but if you have a question I'll try to address it to the best of my ability...
my brother mark,I beseech you open your eyes,how can this verse mean anything else?
we know that in everything god works for good with those who love him,who are CALLED according to HIS purpose.
for those whom he FOREKNEW he also PREDESTINATED to BE CONFORFMED to the image of his son,in order that he might be the first born among many brethren.And those whom he PREDESTINATED he also CALLED;And those whom he called he also justified;And those whom he justified he also glorified.ROMANS 8;28-30
or this one.
.....for they stumble as they were DESTINED TO DO.but you are a CHOSEN RACE,a royal priesthood,a holy nationGODS OWN PEOPLE,that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who CALLED you out of darkness into his marvelous light.1.Peter 2;8,9
or
though they were NOT YET BORN and had DONE NOTHING EITHER GOOD OR BAD,in order that gods purpose of ELECTION might continue,not because of works,but because of HIS CALL,she was told"the elder will serve the younger.as it is written"JACOB I LOVED BUT ESAU I HATED"What shall we say then?Is there injustice on gods part?By no means!For he says to moses,"I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY,I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM IHAVE COMPASSION,so it depends,not on mans will or mans exertion,but upon GODS MERCY.For the scripture says to pharaoh,I HAVE RAISED YOU UP for the VERY PURPOSE of showing my power in you,so that my name be proclaimed in all the earth!So then he HAS MERCY UPON WHOMEVER HE WILLS,and HE HARDENS THE HEART OF WHOMEVER HE WILLS.you will say to me then,why does he still find fault?For who can resist his will?But WHO ARE YOU,A MAN,TO ANSWER BACK TO GOD?WILL WHAT IS MOLDED SAY TO ITS MOLDER "WHY HAVE YOU MADE ME THIS WAY"?has the POTTER NO RIGHT OVER THE CLAY,TO MAKE OUT OF THE SAME LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR BEAUTY AND ONE VESSEL FOR COMMON USE,what if god,desiring to show us his WRATH,and to make known his power,has endured,with much patience,the VESSELS OF WRATH MADE FOR DESTRUCTION,in order to make known the riches of his glory for the VESSELS OF MERCY,wich HE HAS PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR GLORY? ROMANS 9;10-24
The doctrine of election is only part of the much broader biblical doctrine of gods ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY
Mark I dont know how you can get anything else out of this passage or the hundreds more like it!It is god who chooses his people PEIRIOD!!!!!!WE have no part in the selection process,
*This part literally reads: "The Lord is not willing that certain ones should perish."*
Ok, if you can explain away john 3:16, and 1 peter 3:9......what about 1 john 2:1-2? 2 Cor. 5:15? 1 Tim. 2:4-6? 1 Tim. 4:10? Acts 17:30? You're right. It wasn't enough to convince me....I think it's going to be harder to find a greek definition to change(I would say twist but...I don't want to be mean) those...but good luck. I'm a little confused now though....I've only talked to one other Calvinist about this and they believe completely different from you. How many are there? You sound like a house divided against itself. And just for the record...I'd never even heard the term "Armenian" or whatever before I got on this site....nobody taught me from their book of doctrine. This is what I found on my own from reading the bible. Hmm...you'd think more people would be led to "Calvinism" naturally if it was God's truth.
I agree manofgod...he does choose his people....just like he chose Israel....but I don't think he forces people to "join up". I think he has a predestined "church"...a "group"....a "people"....in this world...but I don't see where he makes individual people join....and I don't see where he forces them to stay. All those verses say to me is that God has a plan for "Christians" as a whole. He will save everyone that remains faithful to the end. If we have no part in the election process, then whats the point? But how do you explain Jesus's parable about the prodigal son? He "came to himself". Or is there a different Greek translation that I missed? ...lemme know. I think God uses His Holy Spirit to move on our hearts. Thats where the first spark starts. Thats the seed in all of us. Some seed falls on rocky ground. Whether or not we grieve away the holy spirit is up to us. I just believe we have a choice. Having a choice does not take any glory for ourselves...we can't do it without God. But I don't think God makes us do it. It takes away the whole purpose...to show that we love God of our own free will....more then we love ourselves. I think God COULD make us do it....but I think the fact that He doesn't gives Him more glory. It makes Him unselfish...more merciful...more graceful...more loving....more glorious...and it reminds me that I would be damned if it wasn't for His love. Thats just what I believe. Thats what I find in His word. Maybe you know better...maybe you don't. So far all I've learned from this discussion is that some people go really far out of their way to disprove a couple verses. Maybe I should learn greek so I can be a christian....apparently my bible is all wrong...
There are mysteries in the bible that we cannot fully understand and we just have to have faith about. For example, the Trinity.
Free will is absolutely true and we do choose to accept God and heaven, or we choose to reject the Holy Spirit (God) and hell.
Predestination is absolutely true and the Father decided who would accept His drawing unto Him and be saved, before Christ created anything.
The bible says they are both true, and they are. But until we are given our eternal body after death, we cannot mesh the two into one truth. Until we die, we just have to accept the whole bible as truth in faith, and later it will all make sense to us in our glorified bodies.
The doctrines By james arminias in 1610 were brought forth as a protest during the REMONSTRANCE The armenians objected to the belgic confessions of faith,and the catechism,relating to,divine sovereignty,human inability,unconditional election or predestination,particular redemption,irresistable grace,and the perserverance of the saints.it was in connection with these matters that they wanted the official standards of the church revised.No doubt it will seem strange to many in our day that the arminian doctrines were rejected as heretical at the synod of droit,for these doctrines have gained wide acceptance in the modern church,but the EARLY CHURCH took a very different veiw,they maintained that salvation was a work of grace from beginning to end,in no sense did they beleive that the sinner saved himself,or contributed to his salvation in anyway,adams fall had completly ruined the race. All men by were,by nature spiritually dead and their wills were in bondage to sin and satan.The ability to beleive the gospel was itself a gift from god,bestowed only upon those whom he had chosen to be the objects of his unmerited favor.It was not man but god that determined wich sinners would be shown mercy and saved.ALL the leading protestants of the first epoch agreed with this Including MARTIN LUTHOR
I will side with PETER,PAUL,Martin luthor,john Calvin,you know the people that started the church.
you can stay with your doctrines wich were introduced 1600 years later,and deemed heresy by the early church counsel
ILL give god ALL THE GLORY,And you are free to GLORIFY YOURSELF,That my friend IS THE POINT
