ARMINIAN SPEAKING;gee,Im so glad that I made that decision to follow christ cuz if I hadnt done that I wouldnt be saved,Im really a clever person because I was able to choose god,and my neghbor is not as smart as me,thankyou god for making me smarter than my neighbor so in all of MY great wisdom I was able to see the wisdom in following you!
calvinist speaking:thankYOU lord for opening my eyes oh lord,for without YOUR grace and mercy,i would still be dead in my tresspasses and sin,YOU regenerated my mind,took away my heart of stone,And YOU gave me a heart of flesh,thankYOU oh lord for saving a wretch like me,in JESUS NAME AMEN
The veiw one takes concerning salvation will be determined,to a large extent,by the veiw one takes concerning sin and its effects on human nature.thi is why we first have to deal with total depravity or total inability.When we speak of a man as being totaly depraved,We mean that mans nature is corrupt,perverse,and sinful throughout.The adjective "total"does not mean that each sinner is as totally or completely corrupt in his actions and thoughts as it is possible to be.Instead the word "total"is used to indicate that the whole of mans being has been affected by sin.The corruption extends to everypart of man,His body and soul;sin has affected all(the totallity)of mans faculties-his mind his will ect.
As a result of this inborn corruption,the natural man is totally unable to do anything spiritually good;The sinner is so spiritually bankrupt that he can do nothing pertaining to his salvation.
Man did not come from the hands of his creator in this depraved condition.God made adam upright;There was no evil whatsoever in his nature.Originally,Adams will was free from the dominion of sin;he was under no natural compulsion to choose evil,but,through his fall,he brought SPIRITUAL DEATH upon himself and all his posterity.He thereby plunged himself and all his decendants into spiritual ruin and lost for himself and the entire race,the ability to make right choices in the spiritual realm.We are subsequently not able to choose spiritual good over evil!Mans will,as the result of inherited depravity,is in bondage to his sinful nature!
DontHitThatMark, thanks for the response. Since we're on opposing viewpoints, we can agree to disagree.
I just realized that my tone may seem condescending which happens sometimes when it comes to this topic. This is probably the one topic that gets me fired up the most.
This is why I don't like fighting with other Christians over this, because we already have the rest of the world as our enemies...
It's no problem...it was just as much my fault...but I don't look at this as "fighting". Who knows who we might help with our discussion. Maybe someone will learn from this, or at least be driven to study for themselves. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't see you as a brother. We love the same God...I just don't see what you see in the bible. I just hope we're on the same side when it's over. When this free country starts forcing religion...thats the beginning of the end. It's going to be "christian" on christian again. Stay on the side that gets persecuted and we'll make it.
DHTM,I too will agree to disagree to our differences,although I still beleive in gods ultimate and sovereign grace,we are brothers in christ at the end of the day,and we are to love one another
I suppose we will...I just wish you guys could see that my beliefs don't take away from God's power...they make Him more merciful, more forgiving, more just, more loving, more graceful...in my view anyway. And it kinda worries me about the "translating" stuff...I've been reading my KJV all my life...and now if you're right I could doubt the whole thing...because all those verses....if I just read the bible plainly...don't say what you believe...and if you go to the greek...they supposedly mean the opposite? Does this mean I should burn my bible?
I will sum up what i beleive in plain words,when adam sinned he took away everybodys ability to choose god,yes we have free will,but because of our spiritual death,we dont want god,and we really cant see god,before creation,god chose a race of people who although undeserving as anyone else,would be given the rightousness of christ,this is gods choice,and this is his right,as the maker of us,he also,wich he says plainly in romans9,makes others for common uses,this is also his right,anywhere in the bible,youll also notice in JOB. where a man questions god about his fairness or soverignty he says,who are you,a man,to judge me,and I agree,we cant see all the reasons god does things,I accept this unquestioningly,because I have been spiritually awakened,also because of this spiritual awakening,I dont want to sin,Im not saying I dont,but I sure dont as much,And im much more sensitive to it.We still must evangelise,because we dont know who the elect are,but the assurrance is ours,Just like god raised pharoah to show his glory to his people,the common vessels are to show his glory to his people.By the way,the elect could number in the billions,but just walking down an isle,or praying a prayer does not make someone gods child,I too used to beleive as you do,I now tell you that my walk with the lord is Real,im not saying yours is not,This is not for me to judge,This was never about whos right or whos wrong,I could care less about that,oh,and about the words all or everyone,If i said everyone knows what chicken tastes like,well obvoiusly not everyone whos ever lived or is gonna live has tasted chicken
what jesus meant by whosoever,was any person from any race,creed,basically,jews and gentiles(NON JEWS) alike
this is wHat the bible says an this is what i beleive,I know you beleive differently,and i respect that,
One more thing I forgot to add,the calvinist veiw is,if god calls everyone,you accept and your neighbor doesnt,yet you are both equally sinful,this makes you somehow superior to your neighbor,you responded to the call,and he didnt,so you do get some of the glory,you were smarter or more in tune with god,dont you see,in the end,this was the fairest way he could do it,besides saving everyone,if he did that,then whats the point,god allows evil to exist to show his glory to his people.like i said,i know you beleive differently,and you are a christian brother,so dont take offense,One thing ill leave you with,a mystery,When Christ is talking to Nicademus,before john3;16 notice his answer to nicademas question"how can one be born again'?
Yes...Adam sinned....but I don't see where God took away our choice...in fact...man became like God in the sense that we know good AND evil. I'm of the mindset that God isn't trying to play games with us. If God was going to do something so drastic as to take away our choice to choose Him...I would think He would have made sure we knew it. He would have said it in His bible VERY clearly...just like I believe He does with everything else. I think the parable of the prodigal son is a great example of the way salvation works. "He came to himself", but He still had to ask his Father to use His grace and forgive him. God was still in control of his salvation.
I believe the bible says every human is the same. We all have the chance to choose God...it's just that some of us would rather serve ourselves. They made their choice. And since God is a just God He won't make them be saved because He knows they would not be happy in a perfect environment without the sin they love. They would rather die. That still sounds fair to me. Here's another point. There is an unpardonable sin. Why? If you're saved you can't be lost, and if you're lost you can't be saved, right? So whats the point of a unpardonable sin? I believe God uses His Holy Spirit to constantly work on our hearts. The Holy Spirit is our "conscience". If we choose not to listen to our conscience we grieve away the holy Spirit....or if when we die when we were in the process of grieving away the holy spirit...we are lost by our own choice. That sounds more fair and loving to me then God taking away our choice to begin with. As for Romans 9...I do believe God has predestined a people for himself...just like He did with Israel. But I don't think He forces anyone to be a part of His people. I see Christians fall out all the time, just like the israelites did. You could make the point that they weren't saved to begin with....but what does that do for your assurance? Maybe someone will say that about you someday? And for God hardening pharaohs heart...I'm hardening your heart right now because you don't believe what I'm saying...but I'm not in control of your will. I think God manipulated Pharaoh's pride...but honestly...that's purely a guess. The bible doesn't really clarify either way. 7 times it says "the Lord" hardened pharaoh's heart, and 7 times it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. This is an interesting verse though...1 sam. 6:6 "Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" Kinda implies my point...but anyway...not much to back up my thoughts on that one...
God is constantly referring to himself as the father and we are the children. In a real loving family, the father is the head...and the child obeys the father. Does the loving father force his child to love him? Does a loving child obey out of fear? If the father forces his child to obey him is he a good father? No. If the child disobeys the father willingly...over and over...does the child love the father? Nope. The father might even kick him out of the house to wake them up. If the child asks forgiveness...would a loving father give it to him? Yep. As Christians we submit our will to God. You may think that supposedly gives us glory...but I don't think so...and I've never felt that. I was begging. Just like the prodigal son. "Please, I am not worthy...just allow me to be a lowly servant". I see so many verses in the bible that indicate our choice to love God...I see very few that indicate that God has taken away our choice. We're supposed to "rightly divide the word of truth"...and when the balance tips this much in favor of free will then I'm going to believe it. The other verses must mean something else...and it makes sense...God predestined His church like He chose israel to be His people. They stank at it though...and He was constantly punishing them, pronouncing judgment, abandoning them to their enemies...if they were so chosen...why would He do that? I don't think He predestines our choices in any way...I think as an individual person I have a choice to accept God's free gift, or serve myself. Just my view.
Yes...Adam sinned....but I don't see where God took away our choice...in fact...man became like God in the sense that we know good AND evil. I'm of the mindset that God isn't trying to play games with us. If God was going to do something so drastic as to take away our choice to choose Him...I would think He would have made sure we knew it. He would have said it in His bible VERY clearly...just like I believe He does with everything else. I think the parable of the prodigal son is a great example of the way salvation works. "He came to himself", but He still had to ask his Father to use His grace and forgive him. God was still in control of his salvation.
I believe the bible says every human is the same. We all have the chance to choose God...it's just that some of us would rather serve ourselves. They made their choice. And since God is a just God He won't make them be saved because He knows they would not be happy in a perfect environment without the sin they love. They would rather die. That still sounds fair to me. Here's another point. There is an unpardonable sin. Why? If you're saved you can't be lost, and if you're lost you can't be saved, right? So whats the point of a unpardonable sin? I believe God uses His Holy Spirit to constantly work on our hearts. The Holy Spirit is our "conscience". If we choose not to listen to our conscience we grieve away the holy Spirit....or if when we die when we were in the process of grieving away the holy spirit...we are lost by our own choice. That sounds more fair and loving to me then God taking away our choice to begin with. As for Romans 9...I do believe God has predestined a people for himself...just like He did with Israel. But I don't think He forces anyone to be a part of His people. I see Christians fall out all the time, just like the israelites did. You could make the point that they weren't saved to begin with....but what does that do for your assurance? Maybe someone will say that about you someday? And for God hardening pharaohs heart...I'm hardening your heart right now because you don't believe what I'm saying...but I'm not in control of your will. I think God manipulated Pharaoh's pride...but honestly...that's purely a guess. The bible doesn't really clarify either way. 7 times it says "the Lord" hardened pharaoh's heart, and 7 times it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. This is an interesting verse though...1 sam. 6:6 "Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" Kinda implies my point...but anyway...not much to back up my thoughts on that one...
God is constantly referring to himself as the father and we are the children. In a real loving family, the father is the head...and the child obeys the father. Does the loving father force his child to love him? Does a loving child obey out of fear? If the father forces his child to obey him is he a good father? No. If the child disobeys the father willingly...over and over...does the child love the father? Nope. The father might even kick him out of the house to wake them up. If the child asks forgiveness...would a loving father give it to him? Yep. As Christians we submit our will to God. You may think that supposedly gives us glory...but I don't think so...and I've never felt that. I was begging. Just like the prodigal son. "Please, I am not worthy...just allow me to be a lowly servant". I see so many verses in the bible that indicate our choice to love God...I see very few that indicate that God has taken away our choice. We're supposed to "rightly divide the word of truth"...and when the balance tips this much in favor of free will then I'm going to believe it. The other verses must mean something else...and it makes sense...God predestined His church like He chose israel to be His people. They stank at it though...and He was constantly punishing them, pronouncing judgment, abandoning them to their enemies...if they were so chosen...why would He do that? I don't think He predestines our choices in any way...I think as an individual person I have a choice to accept God's free gift, or serve myself. Just my view.
