Everything Short of Hell, is Mercy...............!!
Posted : 21 Feb, 2011 07:04 PM
God ordains Good and Evil, but ultimately they are all point towards His glory! Look at the story of Joseph, Job, the afflictions of Paul, even Judas and Phoaroh (no need to start that converstion again).
In my own life, my greatest affliction has turned out to be the thing that has brought the most growth and praise to God.
In tough times, I hope to think I may be able to say "though He slay me, yet I will praise Him".
What else is there in life if we cannot look to God who is altogether good and just and right no matter what He does??
As Christians, we show the fruit of our salvation by the way we talk to each other, and I am humbled and honored to call you my sister in Christ. :bow:
One thing for sure: If we have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ that we are all Christians. I think that as we all are open to the word of God we will see there are elements of God's ultimate Soverienty over man's responsibilty as well, but as a response to your question and the Romans 9 I have posted, I would say that it addresses elements of salvation in vs. 21-24
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Yes, Romans 9 does speak of Isreal, and notice that it goes beyond that. Romans 9 is an explanation for why the word of God has not failed even though God�s chosen people, Israel, as a whole, are not turning to Christ and being saved. The sovereignty of God�s grace is brought in as the final ground of God�s faithfulness in spite of Israel�s failure.
In Romans 9:3 Paul says, �I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." Only notice now that this is the plight of Israel: "accursed and cut off from Christ." Now that raises a huge problem! What about the word of God � the word of promise to Israel and covenant: "I will be your God, and you will be my people!" (Jer. 31:33).
So Paul answers this question in verse 6: "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." You can see what was at stake. It looks as though the word of God has failed! But Paul says no. Then he gives the explanation that launches him into the doctrines of unconditional election and divine sovereignty over human willing. (The passage I posted earlier). His explanation in verse 6 is: "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." Not all physical Israel is true Israel. In other words, the word of God has not failed because the promises were not made to all ethnic Israel in such a way that secured the salvation of every individual Israelite. So while Romans 9 is addressed to the Jews, it does have the theme of election and soveriengty within it as spoken to us.
Paul wrote a passage of Romans that addresses questions just like those you bring up. He anticipated them when he wrote the book.
Romans 9:13 - 24:
13Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and Compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "for this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
I don�t claim to have all the answers, but I can say that in light of these scriptures, it is telling us as just mere created beings to hush our months and let God be God. There are wondrous paradoxes concerning our God�How is it that God commanded one nation to judge his people, and then turn around and judge them for doing just that? How is that in one place it says that Pharoh�s heart was hardened, (Exodus 4:21) and in another it says he hardened his own heart? (Exodus 8:15) When Moses asked God to tell him His name, what did God say? �I AM that I AM�. He also says in the same will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will have compassion�, which in His answering in this manner shows the essence of who He is. (Exodus 33: 19)
It all comes down to God�s glory and purpose.
"For this very purpose I raised the up��that my name may be proclaimed� �HIS glory, HIS honor, HIS evangelism.
Our questions and finiteness are all the more reason to acknowledge His Soveriengty!
Matthew 22:14, �For many are called, but few are chosen� I believe is referring to the �general call� of the gospel or the �external call.� This call extends to all who hear the Good News. Many hear it, but of those, who will respond? Those who truly respond in faith are the �chosen� or �elect.� The call that results in people responding to the Gospel refers to God�s irresistible calling to the elect alone (Romans 8:30). This is the effectual call.
Dear James, Two took a week off from the forums to do his best to study this, and although I adamantly do not agree with him, it is more than most have done here.
To All - Because I believe that these discussions are for the most part pretty fruitless, I have opted out of the forum debates, (see my post titled �Forums and Debates� in the Biblical discussions forum 2/13), but I hope you all would oblige me to post a little bit to those who are sincerely questioning.
I think one thing that we have to keep in mind is the difference between God's decreed will and His desired will. The word for "desires" is �THELEO�, which implies "wish, would rather that, desires". God has such a great love for His creation that He doesn't want to see any perish, but would prefer that all would be saved. We know this verse isn't speaking of a decreed will because there are men and women in hell right now. If it were His decreed will, there wouldn't be any humans in hell at all.
I have mentioned before that it is amazing that God has chosen anyone at all, and it does show His incredible love to save sinners. If justice were served, we would all get what we deserve � to be eternally apart from God.
I don�t believe God actively chooses those who are not saved. God does not create unbelief in people�s hearts. Even in reference to Satan, the Bible never states that God creates evil. It only says that �sin was found in him�. That unbelief is already there. He does not coerce anyone to sin. They sin by their own choices. God gives them over to their own desires. (Romans 1:24)
Why then, you may ask~ why would He even create people that He would just allow to perish? It is no different of an answer that the Arminian would give if I were to ask ~ why would He create people for whom He knew would chose to reject Him? Wouldn�t that negate His �love� as you say?
As for witnessing, how much more confidently can we go to share the gospel, knowing that God will use all of our stumbling and feeble attempts because he has already secured that salvation to them? He can use any means as that tool to bring them to Him, but our job is not to wonder if they are elect or not, or to judge that. We simply fall under obedience and live His plan out.
If anyone is sincerely seeking a civil discussion, please feel free to email me.
