Do you really think that anyone would approach someone on the street and say, "Well, I don't know if you're elect or not, and I don't know if Jesus picked you, but just in case you are, here's the gospel!"
No of course not! We would share the gospel with them. It is up to God to change their hearts. If God doesn, then they are given the capacity to choose Him...but I think this point has been made already.
Flyby, I'm not sure I understand your statement about Romans?
He is a mighty God, worthy of all of our praise and worship. We should all have a wondrous holy fear of Him because He has the jurisdical right to do whatever He wants. But because we are children of God and know that He is also loving, we know we have no need to worry. We are His and He will not forsake His own. That should bring us to even more praise and worship and thankfulness! Praise God for that!
Dispite all the talk of "election", I might add that to anyone who may struggle with this aspect of God, please know that it is never too late to trust in Christ for salvation. As I've said before, if you believe and trust in Him, you are elect. If you are elect, you do/will believe in Him!
Over the last several months as I have participated in the forums I have observed a trend that has confirmed my conviction about forum debates, that is - They are not the place to discuss Biblical and/or divisive theological issues. Why? Let me list the reasons.
1) The communication medium of this forum is through the written word. It is hard enough to discribe your thoughts, beliefs, or anything else for that matter without the added benefit of body language, tone, infliction, and verbal clarification that we get verbally. There are people who may have difficulty expressing themselves on paper as well. It is much harder to explain a view when you have to put it down word for word than not. Difficult questions have been asked, and believe it or not, the wide-spreading scope of a doctrine is not easily described in 5 easy points. To understand the nuances, meaning, and benefits of a doctrine it often takes time spent with it and in the word of God.
2) The forums are not an organized, moderated debate. Why do you think that legitimate and formal debates all have a moderator and only 2 participants at a time? Instead, here on the forums we have a hodge podge of many people jumping in on the same thread. There are no rules. They may or may not go off topic. One may latch on to one thought and all lose track of the main point. If a point is one that someone cannot address, it is simply ignored and another one is latched onto.
3) There are many different people with many different views, backgrounds, experiences, and levels of understanding of a topic. There are folks with really good persuasive skills. Others may not be as much. Do we judge truth based on this or are most people slow to form an opinion by carefully weighing it against scripture and their own study? In the meantime, the same forum is given hundreds of views by God-knows who! As human beings, what usually happens? Do most people usually align themselves with what the majority is saying? Do you notice a rising of buzz words that people latch on to and thus form their opinon? (I am not asking for people to reply on what they do as individuals. I am throwing out a general statement concerning the many hits a day).
4) As a dating site, do you think it is possible that someone's postings may have other motives besides the topic at hand? Do people jump on the bandwagon because a favorite is "vocal" about a subject? Again, I am not saying this is happening at the present time. JUST food for thought.
5) The pace of an online forum is spontaneous and it moves quickly. It begins with an inquiry by one person and soon you have a snowball of several postings a day. In a formal debate, the participants come prepared with research and study on their own positions as well as the other side. (and being Christians, it is SOOO much more than just studying. It is prayer, desernment, and time needed to cultivate a thoughtful response!). Let's look at our reality. Before we have time to study a point, it moves to the next...and what MAY happening is impulsive postings that do nothing but hurt others. We do not know if that person is speaking out of retaliation, pride or in/our of the Spirit. Multiply that by about 4-5 people on a thread and you have a ticking time bomb. There is one that has happened and is happening right now. Which leads me to my last point...
6) I assume we are all Christians, and this puts everyting on a whole new plane. It is not about us, that is, who is a "Calvinist", who is an "Arminian", etc. It is about the Body of Christ! We are not just hurting ourselves by talking to each other the way we are, but now we hurt Christ. Some people who are Arminian will now have a preconceived notion about Calvinists. Calvinists will have preconceived notions about Arminians. Christians are divided and not being led by love.
HERE IS WHAT I AM NOT SAYING:
1) DO NOT GET ME WRONG. I LOVE a good discussion. I believe they are possible, but only with folks that have a respect for each other and can bridle their tongues even when it is difficult. I have experienced them and they have made me want to dig more into scripture - and this was with someone of the opposite view.
2) I believe there are times that DO call for a stiff rebuke and righteous indignation is in order. It would be when there is a matter of salvation or when the name of Christ or His worship is perverted. It is when false prophets are drawing attention to themselves or anything other than Christ. Even Jesus overthrew the tables when His house was being used by money changers.
A difference in doctrine makes for an interesting discussion, but if both camps have a basic belief in the same Christ and the same salvation, it should not come to the point that it has. And as said before, both have to be wiling to change their view. I have gotten much food for thought during this debate, but I refuse to quickly post. I will NOT post anything without careful study and prayer, so I have held back for this and other reasons. If I ever post anything I ever regret, I will retract. If I am asked a question I can't answer, I will say "I do not know", or I will defer to a later time. The point is - Whole groups of people have been painted with such a wide brush - and the colors are not pretty.
People have been hurt ON BOTH SIDES of this debate. I personally have strong feelings on one side, but if it cannot be discussed in a civil manner, we should not do it. Nobody will ever change their minds on these forums. At least, I have yet to see that.
LAST, please know that the statements I am making are in a GENERAL sense. Just food for thought in any future interaction.
Good questions to ask yourself:
1) What are my motives?
2) What, if anything, am I doing to better this discussion? Am I an agent of peace or am I egging people on?
3) Am I being led by the Holy Spirit to speak or am I being told to shut my mouth?
4) And a reminder: As a man speaketh, so is he.
I have not been perfect in the past, and I can't say I'll never post, so I ask you all to honestly answer between you and the Lord, I also ask them of myself.
No matter what we say or predict about Egypt, please remember that there are hundreds of Christians there...out own brothers and sisters, who I have personally experienced to be very strong because they are outnumbered by Muslims. They love the Lord, their church, and their families just like you and I do. They want peace and safety, all along they hold on to their faith and perservere. I have found that where there is persecution, there is faith that is strong. BTW - if you look closely, you will notice that the world and ungodliness is inching out the Christian voice in the U.S. as well, and we wiil be persecuted too. So hey, here's an idea...why don't we just PRAY for them?
We are all steadily moving towards a time when the world (not just Egypt) will be against Israel. Oh, and flyby - wife beaters are everywhere.
I've dated both. One was drop dead gorgeous, but he was lacking in integrity and character and was insecure. He said he was a Christian but I could never tell. Another was not what people would call attractive, but he was one of the most godly, gracious and joyful people I've ever known. If it was between just these two fellas, guess which one I'd pick?
The point here is not how awful and vain plastic surgery is. It is a question of the heart of man. The same vanity or access that may motivate someone to get plastic surgery is the same that causes any of us to feel entitled or insecure enough to spend and splurge on our own excess.
